Todd Gagne - Welcome to Wildfire Tales, a podcast dedicated to exploring the startup scene in the Midwest. Join us as we dive into unique challenges and opportunities facing entrepreneurs in the region. You'll hear stories of innovative companies and individuals driving growth and creating jobs. So sit back, relax and get ready to ignite your entrepreneurial spirit. I'm super, super happy today and excited to like introduce you to David Hannah. Dave and I have known each other here for the last five or six years and he's got a lot of interesting stories and good experience to really share his intro and his bio reads. He's a CPA, and it's been a long term, b2b, FinTech entrepreneur, now a solopreneur. As a fractional CFO, he has a lot of experience in the SAS world and startups, and done a bunch of m&a, mergers and acquisition as a strong accounting background. As well as this business process development. Dave holds accounting and MBA degrees from the University of South Dakota. He's passionate about sustaining fly fishing, and serves on the board of the Black Hills fly fishermen, a nonprofit organization focused on enhancing the Black Hills area, fishery habitat. Welcome, David. We're super excited to have you thanks for making the time. It's it seems like we've been talking a lot about you know, your journey and a lot of the things we're going to talk about today, but maybe just like start with a little bit of a snapshot of of your entrepreneurial journey and kind of how you got to this point today. Sure. Well, thank you. Thanks, Todd, for having me on. This is it's kind of weird being interviewed. But as an accountant, nobody talks to a columnist.

David Hanna - But no, so where I started, I grew up in parts of South Dakota and southeast South Dakota near Mitchell. And my dad was an accountant. My mom was just one of the hardest working ladies I've ever known, and helped take great care of me. And while dad was off working, and I've got a brother and a sister. But in Parkston, I had leased a concession stand when I was in high school at the swimming pool, and the concession stand at least for five bucks. That was the rent, they paid utilities and everything. I just wow, that's a good deal. Yeah, not bad. But I sold candy bars, Cokes, bags of Funyuns. I probably ate half of funny in inventory. But, but I really learned the understanding of revenue cost of goods sold in margins in that process, because I had no rent to worry about the five bucks. And so between that mowing yards, my parents ran a restaurant when I was in grade school into high school. A dad made me do the payroll for that place when I was 12 years old, believe it or no, sorry, I had my hands and a lot of little things. So that entrepreneurial side of me, I had fits and starts from a lot of different angles.

Todd Gagne - Yeah. And so how did you end up going from? You know, like you did some CPA work and stuff after graduation to like, you know, owning your own business and then eventually selling it.

David Hanna - Yeah. Well, my dad being an accountant, he had course pushed me a little bit into that side. And that spoke to me more than it did my brother and my sister and I was his last chance being the youngest kid. And so math came easy to me words didn't. And you had the typical story with that. And in going through school in Vermillion, I was a terrible student. But I did finish and sold mattresses for a year, which then I became somebody who had a basic understanding of debits and credits and went through through legitimate sales training. Which in today's world, it's pretty rare combination, even though I just stumbled into it because I drank too much beer in college and it was the only job I could get.

Todd Gagne - What about like, you had a story of like working for Disney too, that I thought was kind of interesting.

David Hanna - Oh, yeah, sorry. I almost forgot about that. I drove submarines for Captain Nemo. Somewhere in 1988. I applied while I was Charlie coyote in college, so I ended up being the mascot. And so I thought well shoot. This is so much fun. I should do this in the summer, Disneycame to campus to recruit for their college program. I signed up to interview I thought maybe I could be one of the characters at Disney World didn't get that job. But I ended up driving some Marines, which is pretty much a lawnmower on a railroad track. His motto was, you glamorize it quite a bit. Is there a picture of that? Yes, I've got a great one right here for you. We're gonna share that. So it's right here on the right. That's me. And that was when I had hair and that's hat still fit? That's pretty good. Those pants would not fit me today. No, no. That's pretty awesome. So that was 1988 1988 years ago. Yeah, just a few.

Todd Gagne -Yeah, let's go. Well, thanks for sharing that. You know, when we met, like, five or six years ago, I remember I didn't know a lot about your background, I know that you were, you know, kind of doing pay stubs and and I, as an entrepreneur, and somebody that knew something about SaaS, we started talking a little bit about your business. And one of the things that I walked away from was just being impressed about your knowledge of metrics of the business. And so I'm curious that, you know, like, you've already talked about how some of that started, you know, from your dad, and pretty young to, you know, getting into accounting and stuff. But I'm just curious about like, metrics and how important they were and how it's really kind of driven some of your kind of professional career, because I do think, for a lot of entrepreneurs, you were much more detail oriented than probably most people that I see in that stage.

David Hanna - Yeah, no, I would agree. My dad got me started on that. And my mom's graciousness to show me flashcards when I was a little kid made math come easy. So take that. And then I get into public accounting. And I always studied clients that did really well. And clients that didn't do so well. And I always tried to figure out the why, what made them different. Yeah. And they were. So they're all in disparate industries, I was doing tax returns, business valuation work, different services we provide to them. And the one common thread that found is the businesses that did best, the business owner always had a deep understanding of their numbers. And it wasn't necessarily from an accountants perspective, but they understood certain certain key metrics that drove that business. And so that carried with me, and then a couple of that up with my accounting background, when I started pay stubs, and realize that, and also subscribe to the adage of you can't manage it if you don't measure it. Sure. And that is all too true. But then picking out what's important. That's the trickiest part. Because otherwise, you can go broke just measuring things. And you're measuring things that don't add, don't put money in the bank.

Todd Gagne - Yeah. And so maybe you just dig in there a little bit further, because I think I think that's true. I think you see some entrepreneurs that go the other way, where it's like, I'm gonna measure everything. And then you're spending a ton of time just measuring stuff. And then of course, are those the right ones. And so when you think about your journey with pay stubs, in particular, how what was important when it was like just a handful of you versus what it was at the end? You know, did that you were there a couple of things that you really focused on early, and then basically, you know, manage that pretty effectively. And then over time you added them, because you just had more people, more customers more complexity in the business.

David Hanna - At first, our measuring wasn't that great. The first few years, really, because we're just trying to survive to the next day. We started in January of 2008. Well, fall of 2008. Do you think the world's gonna end in that financial crisis? Yeah, I was like, wow, this is great. I just sold everything I owned, and put it all into this. But thankfully, we made it through that. And during those few years, we were burning up a lot of cash, relative to ourselves. Anyway, we're losing $180,000 -$190,000 a year for the first few years. Well, and I was hoping $200,000 would get us profitable. And then that'll taken us about $700,000-$750,000. Before we got profitable, and I was thinking to take two years ended up taking about six years. About five and a half. But, but as we grew, at first, I thought every dollar of revenue was a good dollar revenue. But then I suddenly started to learn that, you know, some dollars revenue come easier than others, which you always know. But in the early throes of things, I was just we're just trying to get clients get clients get clients and serve them well. But then it wasn't until after a few years, I thought, Okay, what really are our margins? And what's it going to cost us if we add on this one other service inside the software? And how much time is that going to take? What's that labor costs gonna be? And by labor costs, one of the things actually, I actually made this mistake, which seems weird admitting it, but I did not include our employee benefits and payroll taxes. I was just doing things off gross wages. And I knew better until I started analyzing the numbers at probably one in the morning and And I realized, Oh, well, no wonder. And I thought the numbers look too good was because I had a cost underestimated. Sure. And that was another 25% added on to that labor cost because I didn't have it accounted for properly.

Todd Gagne - So would you say like, as you've kind of gone through this evolution from like, small to like figuring out, you know, all of this and the value of revenue and making sure you understand all your costs, was there anything that was like the most important metric? Or was that was this one, that kind of aha moment? In hindsight, you know, or was there something else?

David Hanna - One of the biggest key metrics I studied, and I compare this to say, paychecks, paychecks and ADP are publicly traded behemoths in the space we used to be. And I used I actually invested in paychecks during the 90s. And one of the goofy metrics I stumbled upon was their average revenue per employee. And this is in the mid 90s, I remember they were generating about $120,000 in revenue per employee. Wow, their average wage can't be but $30,000 or $40,000 at that time. And as like, holy cow, that is a better margin than a CPA firm generates. Yep. And that's what made me end up getting into that business. So average revenue per employee. And that actually calculating the margin, or the margin between your revenue minus fully, fully accounted for labor costs, yeah, employer, payroll taxes, employer paid benefits, but then also your direct variable costs. For us being a software reseller, I had to include the costs that we paid to Kronos or UKG at the time, and we were paying them when we finished up over $300,000 a year. So I had to make sure that was included. The costs, we paid to Wells Fargo treasury management for run and ACH payments to people, all those perfectly variable costs, when what I mean by that, for those that aren't nerdy accountants, is for every additional dollar of revenue, you incur an additional cost of say, 20 cents, or 10 cents, or whatever it is. But knowing that was perfectly variable costs were really important. And then also to establish that margin, and then analyzing that and looking for anomalies over a period of time. But those were the metrics that I studied feverishly.

Todd Gagne - Yeah, well, that makes sense. And I think it's a, you know, like, I just don't think every entrepreneur or CEO gets to that level that early. So I think that's good. Maybe my next question, though, kind of is a dovetail to that, I think, when you start thinking of things, that way, it creates a culture, and to start with the culture as you, right. I mean, when you're first starting out, and you're hiring people, and the specificity of costs, and understanding your margins, and you know, service to the customer, those are derivatives of your personality and kind of what you're building, maybe talk to me a little bit about that like attention to detail, your customer focused, you know, your value from the employee to in the margin, you were trying to get, like, how did that all kind of work from you being doing it to your Start by yourself to, you know, having a staff that that you're hiring and looking for.

David Hanna - First off was always the service. And because I knew that if we didn't control the software, we didn't develop and sell it, we couldn't really control the feature set that we're selling. Even though we thought we had a great piece of software that could compete against the national providers, the only thing we had left to differentiate ourselves with service service. And so as easily as I've said that right there, I would talk to our people about that constantly. And saying, that's what we have, that's what we have to sell as us. And so that means answering the phone, as a human. That means returning phone calls timely, that means returning emails timely. And in I would just constantly harp on that, and probably drove half crazy sometimes. But that started to embed in everybody. And when we hired somebody new, I would start to hear other employees talking to that new person about these are the expectations of how we serve our people. And so that did slowly grow between all of our people. And then on the number side, we spoke on that as well, at quarterly and annual meetings.

Todd Gagne - Right. Another thing that I think is kind of counterintuitive in your business, I think when I talked with you, it was just the piece of growth. I knew you wanted to get you know, cashflow positive, you'd already been when I talked to you, but you weren't like hell bent on like throwing gasoline on this business and just accelerating it. And so you had kind of a different strategy to it both from you know, customer acquisition, differentiation from your offerings, it was service based. And so maybe talk to me a little bit about like, was that a function of just you didn't have, you know, a strong background in sales from a software perspective? Or was it more deliberate? Anything in hindsight that you maybe would have done differently? Or do you think it worked out really well, given kind of the constraints you had?

David Hanna - Yeah, I think of it as a function of not that deep a background in software sales for myself, well, I had zero when we first started. And that coupled with we were so particular about service side, because I knew how long our our sales cycle it took between one and seven or eight months to close a sale from somebody says, Yes, I'm interested, and they're talking to you on the phone, or you're in person to closing the deal. So as a fairly long, like most software sales, b2b software sales, it takes a little while, when I realized how much time was invested on that I wanted to make darn sure we kept the client, right. And so that's when servers became really even more important than I realized how valuable that client was. And the lifecycle of that client. And I never really got deep into the catch, and, and lifecycle value of a client, I always had my own estimate, because I always figured that client was worth probably somewhere around two times their annual revenue in our industry. And so I looked at that part that way, but then during that sales process, I would talk to that client and remind them that they can leave at any time we didn't tie him to us. And so our clients became so loyal to us, we real I realized I didn't have to work for the sale, they would refer people to us. And I saw other groups our size, go put a bunch of sales effort in, but then I saw their service suffer. And they had so much turnover on that side. And so there's it's always a balancing act, how fast you want to push that? How much turn Are you willing to live with? Because you know, the faster you push there on the sales, you're going to have some churn probably, unless you have exceptional management on both sides of that. Yep. And as we all know, that's hard to do, too.

Todd Gagne - Yeah, there's no question about it.

David Hanna - Yeah. And plus, raising the money to develop a sales, a good sales process and practice. I thought, well, shoot, I needed sales manager, because I was obviously bad at managing a salesperson. And so I've got, do I want to manage that? Or do I want to just manage a service and let those people do a great job. And I'll go service leads when we get the nice warm leads that are easy to close?

Todd Gagne - Yeah. And so I think you played with the cards you had, and you played to the strengths you had. And so and in I guess the next kind of transition is this lead to an outcome of selling your business? And so I think, you know, that's what all entrepreneurs want to hear, right? They put in all this time and effort. And at some point in time, there's a financial reward to doing it. And so maybe you could talk a little bit about just that transition from were you interested in selling? Were there conditions that were changing in the in the business environment that drove you to kind of look for an exit? Like, how did that actually come from? You know, I'm running my business to Sunday, you decided, Okay, it's time to do something different.

David Hanna - Yeah, well, I'm guessing anybody who's walked that path of starting a business. Once you're a couple years in, you're thinking, I'm just gonna sell this thing because I don't want to do it anymore forever. Because you have those nights you drive home, you're like, What have I done to myself? Which trailer court should I move into all those kinds of conversations. But after 14 years of doing it, and during that last six years or so, there were times you have a long day, and you think maybe it's time, that's not time. Now, I still see too much horizon out in front of us. And our employees, been with us a long time. They're really good, wonderful people. And so I was reluctant to do that because I thought I wanted to help create it. tunity for them with a business. So I was like, do I start to deliver pieces of equity to them? Or do I sell it and try to sell to a buyer that takes good care of people want to go? Yeah. So with a smaller group, you get that emotional side of that. And so that that made things tough. But then COVID showed up, and everybody wanted to work from home, and wanted to continue working from home where I was, I started turning into the angry old guy in the office, that's gone. I'm here in the office, I can manage in three dimensions I don't manage in two dimensions. And the more I realized that that was becoming a reality of, boy, I don't really want to do this right now. But I think, yeah, and there, there are a few groups I've met at national conferences over the years, and business owners are always talking. So you're gonna get out, you're going to transition to new owners, what are you going to do? I mean, those conversations are shoot off, they happen too often. And I'd get a phone call once a month from a private equity group here and there that was rounding up groups like us. And finally, one day, I thought,

Todd Gagne - It's time to return that call.

David Hanna - Yeah, yeah. And so I ended up with a few options and worked with it. And, yeah, and then working through that process over a nine month, nine month window.

Todd Gagne - So was it difficult? I mean, did you have it sounds like you had multiple suitors, which is helpful. And you know, so valuation and some of the, you know, you had a pretty good handle on these key metrics. Do they feel like the acquiring company kind of appreciated what you had built and kind of looked at the business the same way? Did they have as much rigor is, as you did? And, you know, obviously, you ended up at a place where you felt like the valuation was fair.

David Hanna - Yeah, that part actually came pretty easily. And then I thought, well, Shoot, maybe we left money on the table. I mean, you'll never know.

Todd Gagne - Yeah, you never know.

David Hanna - Yeah, so you learn to get used to it. But I'm still happy with even over a year out, I'm still happy with that side of it. The due diligence side of them looking at us, they're impressed with our profit margins, our people, and our level of service. Some of those metrics we were talking about earlier, as a net promoter score, I started looking at that closely. And through the HubSpot service hub, it's what we used Zendesk, same one in the same sort of say, when we looked at those more immediate CSAT scores, and started watching those by person. And that started opening up a whole new line of metrics I never got that deep into. But the buyers were, obviously really liked our people and our cash flow. And our client base is really good. We're very diversified, and our client base. If there's the bot, the only thing I do all over again, is do more homework on the parity between the buyers perspective on staff and what they can do, as well as their perspective on on the service. And because of people that bought as their, their approach to the servicing end was different than ours. And to a point to where I think that happens a lot. And those transactions, but I wasn't really happy with some of the outcomes.

Todd Gagne - Do you think they diluted the value of the business they bought? Because you're Are you insinuating that like service went backwards? Or they said a different approach?

David Hanna - Probably somewhat, from what I've heard, I'm not certain of that. But yeah, I haven't been around it since May of last year. But from what I understand, yeah, it seems like that couldn't be the case. I can't say it's, I don't think it's been terrible. But for those clients that needed a stronger hand to hold them, and for us, we probably overserved in some situations. So I couldn't stomach the thought of somebody speaking poorly about our service. And I think there needs to be a level of comfort that, well, we can't spend that much money serving that one client, right. And they've got to learn to figure things out on their own. And then we had some of those clients that we held their hand too much.

Todd Gagne - It makes sense. You're valuable. That's for sure. Yeah. Yep. So David, you've had you know, I mean, you've had an amazing career and done a lot of different things, if you get could go back to your 20 year old self. And I think a lot of the people that that I work with, you know, from an entrepreneur standpoint, are relatively young, what were like what would be three items that you would go back and tell your 20 year old self based on all these kinds of lessons learned?

David Hanna - Um, I'm one of them. I don't think I'd written down earlier when we're talking and I just thought of is, I would have started that business at the age of 30 instead of 40. Because I got to the age of 40, and realized dang it, I don't want to be 50 wished I did that 40 started better starting by but I did honestly like 30 to 40 year old range. For whatever reason, I didn't seem to have the confidence that I could go do that. And so I had a great experience helping have family build a hotel management company after I left public accounting? And that gave me the confidence where I was like, well, shoot. Yeah, I can do this. Yeah, yeah. And so that would be, don't wait too long, but get a good foundation of experience. Okay, that's dependent on the field of study that's a little different for everybody. One of the other ones is realize that as humans, we all lie to ourselves, we always think we're probably better at some things than we are. And find that person that'll call you out on it. And, and have the Moxie to listen to him, even though it's hard to do sometimes, especially early on in an idea, because there were so many early decisions in those first two years, that took us down a path so far that it was tough to reel that back in and go down the path that we didn't choose. That'll help a person I think, choose more wisely when you're making key software decisions, key service billing related decisions. What's your billing model? Revenue Model? Gotta be sure. Because once that toothpaste is out of the tube, some of it's really hard to put back in. Yeah, yeah. But there's one other item here, I'm gonna find it here real quick. I thought it was important, oh, shoot, most important piece on the accounting and just make sure you at least track of cash, cash in cash out on the front end. Go ahead and keep it simple. But make sure it's something that can scale later. Sure. And don't be afraid to ask for help. And there's nothing wrong with outsourcing certain things. And hopefully, you got the capital to do that.

Todd Gagne - Yeah. I think those are good. That's good. I appreciate you having that reflection and kind of thinking about through that. You know, the next kind of one that I had on this was talking about why Rapid, you know, we've we've, you know, both of us have participated in this kind of innovation district and trying to build and retain more of our students, you know, whether it's a School of Mines or others and keep them in state and really get them employed, really diversify away from having all these service jobs or at jobs and having something else like technology. You've been on the forefront of that for a while. And you've kind of seen this evolution of, you know, starting pretty tough, you know, in an environment that maybe wasn't as kind and hopefully over those years that you've been doing paystubs and that stuff, it's gotten easier. I'm curious about why keep why be here, and you think it's a good place to continue to build out businesses.

David Hanna - First off the why I in 1999, I chased an old girlfriend to Denver from here. And she's still there, I came back. So that worked out pretty well, in my opinion. But after I was in Denver for a while, one of the reasons I came back here is because if I wanted to go do something in Denver, and this is 1999, Denver, 2000, Denver, so it's 22 years ago, I had to travel 30 to 60 minutes to go see a friend or to go do something out in the mountains, and then you had another million people wanting to go do the same thing you did. So it's really tough to spine space. I contrast that with today. About two hours before we got on this zoom call. I ran home west of town about 10 miles grabbed the dog went out to Forest Service road, went for a quick, no two mile little loop on a Forest Service trail. never saw anyone buddy. drove back into town, grab a quick bite to eat, come back to the office. And there are too many places in the world where you can get away with doing that. Yeah. And it's 60 degrees up in the hills right now in the middle of February. Yeah, yeah. So it's a gorgeous day. 

Todd Gagne - So that by itself is wonderful quality of life.

David Hanna - Yeah. And then on the on the human side. One thing I grew up in eastern South Dakota, went to Houston, Texas, went back to South Dakota, came to this side of the state went to Denver came back. And then I was in Orlando there Disney World for summer. When those places I've been everywhere else compared to here. There's very little pretentiousness here. And one of the things I like the most is you are who you are here. Just don't hurt me. Don't hurt my family. Don't take my stuff and you're perfectly okay in society. And that's it. It's kind of a live and let live mentality out here and absolutely love that about this place, compared to other places where but yeah, and then you contrast that with all the money getting poured into Elevate Rapid City and that the devotion and care in trying to bring more economic opportunity here that is not in the tourism trades. Tourism is important over trying to get into trades and services and businesses that are not that that are not government that are not healthcare. Those are kind of our three pillars of our community. So we've got all this intellectual capital at the School of Mines that we're fighting to retain, and grow that here. And I'm seeing more green shoots today than I've ever seen before. In all those areas. Yeah. Yeah, like it's gonna be the next five to 10 years are really going to be something around here.

Todd Gagne - Yeah, I agree. And so it's good to hear you see it, say it and say it with a little bit different perspective, too. And so that's exciting. And it's exciting to be part of it, right? I mean, as we all play a role. So well, good, I just have two more questions for you. One of them is kind of going back to your intro and just talking about your love of fly fishing. I'm kind of curious about just you know, that as a hobby, it sounds like it's something that you've been doing for a number of years. Is there any corollary to how this benefits your business? Is it just something that, you know, gets you away from thinking about it and brings you back fresh to work? Is there something more to it? Is there something more to the craft that ties to kind of business? Or is it just a passion for you?

David Hanna - Yeah, it doesn't really do much for business other than it's a hobby. The one thing I found most interesting to me is I never knew what a fly what a fly was, other than I'm thinking about how it's fly when I first moved out here, friend of mine convinced me to buy a fly rod. And I said, I'm not going to be one of those uppity tweed hat wearing people. And they convinced me to do it takes me out fishing once. They said, What do you think of that? I said, I kind of liked that. I liked the variables involved in fishing side of it. And he goes, well, good, because I won't fish with you for a year to get me to spend this money efficiently. And he said, new people in sport drive me crazy. That was 1995. Well, fast forward to now I have two boats, one with a motor one without one for drifting rivers. I have I think 11 or 12, fly rods. And I fish a lot. But it isn't so much the fishing as I've gotten older and found because at first you want to catch every fish available if there's a fish or you want to catch it. But all of a sudden you look back at the different trips, I've been able to go on the people I've met the places I've been, that's far more important than the actual fishing itself. The fishing is almost second or third in line. And also, the part of the fishing side it from a cerebral or intellectual standpoint, is a volume of variables involved in throwing a fly rod properly and catching fish on a fly rod versus spinning gear. Yes, I grew up with spinning gear, I switch to the fly rod. And I still own spinning gear and still throw it sometimes. But yeah, the fly Red Hat adds a number of variables to the activity that nothing else does. But it's another type of hobby and I've said it to my sister said it to my brother that actually I feel sorry for people that don't have good hobbies, whether it's knitting or fishing, but if it's one thing that removes your mind from the rest of the world, the rest of the world ceases to exist. That's a wonderful hobby.

Todd Gagne - Well, good. Well, thanks for sharing that. Yeah, you know, kind of wrapping this up. I we've been creating this kind of tradition about asking what the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you. I think it's important to remember the humanity of kind of what we do and it's all people and I think It's important to realize all the people that helped us get here. We didn't do it on our own. That's for sure. And so I'm just curious on from your standpoint, David, what's the kindest thing anybody's ever done for you?

David Hanna - I'm glad you asked me that before this because I made me finally remember a story. My dad when he was doing some traveling and audit work. I was in high school. That's about 15. So we were down in New Mexico. And he was going to be working all day. So he dropped me off at a golf course, I think it was on the edge of the airbase down there. And I go walking into the clubhouse, I was getting at the time, I was starting to play some pretty decent golf. And I go up to the counter, it was eight bucks, I think for 18 holes in a car, whatever it was, this is shoot 1981 to something like that. And I reached my pocket. I didn't have enough money. And I go, it's sir. Sorry, I don't have enough money. And I was just gonna turn around and I thought, well, shoot, I'll just chip in pot all day and wait for that. And I turned around this little bit older gentleman behind me goes out of money. And I said, Oh, it's okay. I just don't have enough. It goes no, no. And he hollers at the guy behind him. Because I'll take care of his grandkids, he can play with me. And I said, Well, as soon as my dad gets here, I'll get the money and pay it back. He goes not on it. Don't worry about that. Because you get a chance to do something nice for somebody and other day you do it, then you paid me back. So that was my very first lesson on paying it forward.

Todd Gagne - That's cool. It's a good reminder, isn't it?

David Hanna - Yeah, yeah, very much. So. Yeah. Yeah. So well, good, good guy.

Todd Gagne - Yeah, sounds like it. So I'll just wrap this up. David, I really appreciate you spending the time and telling some of these stories, I think there's a lot of lessons to be learned in kind of your journey. And really just appreciate you taking the time to share. As we've kind of talked about, there's a lot of entrepreneurs that can learn from maybe some of the mistakes and some of the things that we've done in the past. And I think if we can just do something to like, minimize, don't make the same mistakes I made, you're gonna end up making some different ones. And just keep doing the rails. And so I think your story and giving us some of the examples and stuff really does help illustrate that point. So thank you very much.

David Hanna - Yeah, no, I certainly hope so. Yeah, because you never do it by yourself. I know.

Todd Gagne - You don't. So thank you. Yep. Okay, thanks for joining wildfire tales. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Learn something new about entrepreneurship and creating your next startup. Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Follow us on social media to stay up to date and all things Wildfire Labs. Until next time, keep your entrepreneurial fire burnin bright.