Todd Gagne - Deb is a certified general appraiser with an MAI distinction, running her own appraisal business Mountain West valuations and eventually landing in the biggest need of all - evaluations. Now she has launched Eval.com. Her focus on elevating the industry, the appraisers place in it, and the demand for valuations, so the can be met while maintaining the vitality of the profession well into the future. So welcome, Deb. This is great. I appreciate you making the time. I've known you for a couple of years and been kind of excited to do this podcast with you. So welcome.

Deb Clark - Thanks, Todd. I'm really glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Todd Gagne - Yeah, well, good. Well, as I was thinking of candidates to do this podcast with your name came up really quick, I think that you have an interesting origin story, your business has progressed a lot since the time I've known you. And you're doing it in a pretty tough economic climate. So maybe we'll start there, maybe we'll start a little bit about, your origin story. You are the CEO of Eval.com today, and we'll talk about that kind of, you know, through the rest of this, but maybe talk to me a little bit about just how you got there. Because I think your origin story is fascinating.

Deb Clark - Okay, yeah, it's probably what you would consider non traditional. I am, I'm originally from Canada, I grew up on a farm in rural Manitoba, about four hours north of Minot North Dakota, and I had a I had a great childhood, you know, lived on that farm, my brother was my best friend, my dad was my idol I had the world at my feet. And then, in the summer that I turned 12. You know, life had a pretty hard pivot at that point. My dad moved to the west coast. So halfway across the country, kind of had his own do over, you could say, and, left myself and my older brother and sister, and my mom, in Brandon. That was, it was essentially the last point that I really was kind of raised by anyone at that time, I found myself you know, that same summer, 12 years old, and essentially having to kind of raise myself. You know, my mom did the best that she could. But, you know, when you're thrown into the deep end, sometimes it's all you can do to keep your own head above water. So, but being 12, you know, you don't know how to raise yourself, you have no clue. But I did the best I could. Managed to get, you know, a few years of school in. But by that point, you know, by 11th grade, I was barely going, my grades were terrible. And I just didn't think that it mattered anyway. And so I dropped out for the first time, halfway through the 11th grade. So I could take a job working full time at the drive thru and McDonald's, which was super. I did that I did that for a few months, and then left home. Two weeks after I turned 17, to hitchhike across the country. I tried to keep a couple of jobs, and I couldn't. So I actually ended up homeless for a period of time. You know, it was during this time, that I think one of the most impactful moments of my life occurred. I was I was sitting on a park bench in Banff, Alberta. And it was evening it was dark. And it would have been October it was getting cold. And I it, it occurred to me I had this thought that if something happened to me, if I were to disappear, no one would even notice for weeks. And when you have when you adopt that belief that you don't matter whether it's true or not, that leaves a mark that you will carry with you for the rest of your life. Don't worry now, my life is is pretty great. But I still carry those scars. It's just kind of Yeah. But following that, I ended up on the west coast of Canada. I moved back in with my estranged dad. I got another semester of high school in before dropping out again. That time for good. And moving out on my own. Didn't really have any skills but turned out I was really good at bartending. So that was what I did. All through my 20s it was it was a pretty great career. Actually I did I did quite well with it. That's what I was doing when I met Dan, who's the American he and I got married two months later. Pretty big thing, you know, not only did marrying Dan allow me the opportunity to move to the United States, which obviously changed my life. But he was also the first person to ever suggest to me that I was smart. And he was the one who suggested I go get my GED. So when I was 27, I went and took the pre assessments, test, and did so well on it that I, that they said, you know, you can just come in and sit for the exam, you're good. So I thought, wow, okay, sure. I came in, I wrote the exam. And I scored in the 95th percentile of us high school graduates. So they gave me a partial scholarship to the local community college, and I was just blown away, because I'd never had any idea up to that point that I was particularly intelligent or capable at all. And that really changed the way that I felt about that.

Deb Clark - Well, I still, I still stuck with bartending, you know, continued that until we moved to Wyoming in 2006. And that was when I just kind of hit a wall. I couldn't do it anymore. But at that point, you know, I didn't have any other skills. And the only education I had at that time was this GED. And so I talked my way into the, into a job as the assistant to the director of the Chamber of Commerce in the small town we were living in, in Wyoming. And, and it was while I was working there, that a new appraiser came to town. She came in to sign up for the chamber, and we talked for about 45 minutes. Nice lady, she left and the next day, she came back and said, I'm looking for an assistance. I'll give you 25% More than they're paying you here, which translated to $10 an hour. Work for me. So here I am. 30. And I'm making $10/hr. Like, awesome, okay, well, whatever, why not? Right. I just knew I couldn't bartend anymore. I went to work for her. She worked over home. And within two weeks, I knew that was what I wanted to do. I wanted to be an appraiser boy, here's this woman, she was smart and independent, capable. She had this great career, she made good money, and she was her own boss, I was just like, everything. No, I'm gonna do this. And that was it. So I worked for her for a couple of years, she moved away, she ended up being a bit of a hobo. But that actually became the reason for me to, to kind of go back out there and became a very squeaky wheel with this father son outfits that did commercial and agricultural appraising. And eventually, after months of trying, I was able to get in had a meeting with these guys. And they agreed to take me on as a training. So that was in 2010. So there, I was working for this father, son outfit. New Neil was the dad. He was the ranch appraiser. You know, he ended up spending pretty much the next three years with me just attached to his hip. They taught me everything that, that they knew, they gave me an incredible opportunity. They paid me Well, and, and you know, that was just kind of that was just it for me. And something that I remember, when they first hired me was, I had no business experience at all. I never even been a manager anywhere before. But they hired me and I come to work for them. And just this little kind of family run firm. And I had the sense that there was all this potential in this little company. And I thought this could be so much more like you guys could go in other areas. And you could offer other things. And this could be amazing. I don't know where that came from. So I never had a thought like that before. But it was really exciting, inspiring. And then in 2015, they gave me the opportunity to take the company over from them. And Andrew was wanting to move to Texas and Neil was getting closer to retirement. And even though I'd never run a business before I just jumped at the opportunity. So I dove in, started trying to build the airplane on the way down when it comes to business. You know, I had to figure out everything from payroll to like, you know, insurance and and oh my gosh, it was just it was it was a lot but you know, but we held on and that when I took over the company, it gave me the opportunity to start looking at other services, other parts of our industry that that we didn't do before. One of those was these evaluations, which we started doing in 2018. Started with one client In one year, we had 16. It just really took off. One year after that, I bought the domain eval.com. And about 18 months later, we launched as this nationwide provider of evaluation services. So it was January of 21. And now, here we are.

Todd Gagne - Yeah, that's pretty cool. It's. So thanks for sharing that. I think you've had some painful memories that you've kind of turned into something constructive. So that's pretty cool. And I think that's really, if I'm honest, and listening to that story, as well as knowing you. I think a lot of those early experiences really shaped how you think about preparing for the startup? I really do. I think you've you, you recognize opportunity, and you're willing to take risks to go get it. But I'm curious about just what other things from a skill set or core values, do you think translated? Well, from your kind of, you know, growing up and that origin story into, you know, building a startup and running one?

Deb Clark - Well, yeah, I, I think about this quite a lot. I think just when there's a real dichotomy between where you once were and where you are now, I think that we tend to, we tend to really try to reconcile how did it happen? How did I get here. And because nothing is absolute, right? It's just 30 years of day after day after day, small things, but you know, when, when I think about how my background contributed to who I am, where I am today, I think that in a pretty brutal kind of tough love way, life taught me that I was entitled to absolutely zero, that if I wanted to be anything other than a complete failure, like we're talking homeless, drunk, irrelevant. Like just the word alone, right, that if I wanted to be anything other than that, that was 100% on me. And, you know, there's this kind of heartbreak that happens when you realize that. But then, when you come out the other side of that, and you think you discover that, actually, in a way, that's good, because I don't hate on anyone else, for my success, or for my happiness, it's attributable to my own ability to work hard, and to work honestly, and to apply myself and to dig deep, and to never give up. And if I do all those things, you will have like, micro failures all the way some bigger than others, but overall, the trend is going to be towards success. So I think that that was a really big thing. You know, that just kind of from a values perspective, that that I picked up from the particularly hard times of my life. After that, I would say probably, I give a lot of credit to my bartending years for you know, what I know now and, and kind of how I how I work. I think when I was a bartender, you know, it, that job taught me not only you know how, again, to work hard, and to work fast, and to multitask, and how to, to not only get by in a chaotic environment, but to really thrive, like the more you have going on at a bar, the more you're making, and the bigger the energy and it's like you just kind of learn how to embrace that, rather than to kind of run and hide from it. It's like, no, no, this is this is what it's all about, this is what you want. So I became very good at that. But it also really taught me how to be tough like I have a thicker skin today than I did before I ever started bartending. There's many times I would leave the bar and just cry like my early years. Drunk patrons can be super brutal. There's a lot harassment that takes place in that environment and, and, you know, and it's just at some point, you reach that place where you it just doesn't bother you as much anymore. So that job taught me so much about human behavior, that while it didn't translate into like, you know how to do real estate, obviously, I think that it really it really helps me in the position that I am being a woman in a male dominated industry, offering fairly disruptive service building a company that is very different from what exists out there. This, this thick skin, this, I'm a little less willing or less likely to be intimidated by, you know, perhaps like more kind of powerful people when you've worked in for that long, everyone is you just needs a drink thing, they're just the same, you can have a guy who makes $100 million a year. And he's just the same who's the guy who, you know, just used his whole check at the, you know, blew it at the bar that night, it's like, it just, they're just the same. And you kind of get, you get to be as comfortable with one as you are with the other. And so I think, you know, I think that, that those things really just kind of helped me be who I am and, and have what I do kind of the foundation that I have to carry into this industry and into the company that we're building.

Todd Gagne - Yeah, good. Let's pivot a little bit to like the your current gig and just maybe the success you had, I was thinking back, you know, I think we started talking in like, 2020, you finish that year with revenues about $400,000. In 21, it got to 1.4. And then in 2022, it doubled, basically, again to like 2.5. And then you know, this year, you're hoping to get to 5 million. So you know, those are growth numbers that every entrepreneur would be just envious of. And I think he did it in kind of an increasing inflationary environment, which is not easy. You didn't have a ton of technology to help you scale. Right. So this was a people and process. And so you know, I'm curious about just what that journey has been like. I mean, that's, that's incredible. And it's a testament to you and your team, have the growth, and it's exciting to see where this thing goes. But that that's incredible. And it wasn't easy.

Deb Clark - Yeah, it sure wasn't. And it's always interesting to me, when, when I hear you or anyone talk about our, you know, really great growth, because to me, it's still feel sluggish response fast as I want, right? It never been never, I'm sure you remember, you remember back in 2020 2021, I saw these huge numbers, right? Because me all this demand and, and you're like, take it down a little Deb. And when I did, like we've we've been spot on with those numbers ever since we've met those goals. But we didn't have this explosive growth that I anticipated. And I think that's, that's probably the you know, that's that's just a really kind of important piece of this of this growth journey. That I would imagine entrepreneurs tend to fall into quite easily that we think you know, that we we have one market, we have a product and a market. And like, for me this product was evaluations in the state of Wyoming. I started selling evals, to my existing appraisal clients in the state of Wyoming and western South Dakota were I was already known as an appraiser, they already knew me, they trusted me, they believed that I could produce something or my firm could produce something that was credible. And when you are selling to financial institutions who are only client. And the whole purpose of bringing us into to as a vendor for them is to help them achieve safe and sound lending practices. That's really, really important that directly impacts their ability to do business. If they don't choose that vendor. Well, if they don't make sure that they're doing everything they have to do. So I completely underestimated how important that trust component is with financial institutions. Because here in year one, you know, like I said, I went from one client to 16, which is almost every bank in the state. Overnight, it just sold itself. I pick up a phone I call tell them we're doing these done, like next week, they're all come in, it's great. And we just you know, we just really took off, and I thought this is amazing. We're gonna do everywhere we go. We're gonna take the same numbers, like I remember figuring out okay, this is how many people there are so this is how many evals we did. So this is the average per capita, we need to do one eval and I had these huge numbers you remember that?

Todd Gagne - I do.

Deb Clark - To an every state we're gonna get and we're gonna have just exactly and oh my God, would we ever wrong? Are we ever wrong? And it was like, we tried getting into these new states where they didn't know me. And they're going yeah, nice story. Give us a call when you've been around for a few years kind of and, and it was just like the biggest slap in the face.

Todd Gagne - So maybe like maybe pivot to that where it's like what what are the like the big learnings by year like if you went and said, you know, let's say 2018 to 2020. Right? You learned something in that like, is that was that maybe button product market fit where it was like that was the most interesting thing because I had a product and I found in Wyoming with trusted contacts, but I found an offering that actually worked. And maybe that was the most important thing there. I don't know, I'd love to go through kind of these years and just kind of see what was the most important aha moment, every one of those?

Deb Clark - Yeah. You know, I would, I would say probably in in 2020. You know, finding product market fit is that's really what we did in 2020. We discovered in that year that there was no way to, to do this, to provide these evaluations to, you know, to lenders, everywhere, through any kind of like, there was no shortcut to it, that, that there was no easy way to do that, we tried for almost the entire year, to find some way to bring in, you know, remote appraisers to sign people up to, to get to get other people to join our organization that could fill what we saw as our gaps in data or, or knowledge of, you know, certain areas. And, ultimately, we ended up in the fall of that year, it was just like this aha moment that you know, what, like, anything in life, there is no shortcut. And if we want to do this, right, we need to have control of, of our product, from start to finish from when the order comes in until the report is shipped, we need to own the customer relationship, we need to manage every single component of it. Very humbling. But a good lesson, to learn that we have to just be prepared to take the time to earn that trust, it's not something that they're just going to give us because I'm an appraiser. But we what I ended up learning in 2021 was that there are consequences to getting over your skis, there are consequences to kind of just kind of chaotic planning, well, here's what we think these are going to be. So let's do all this hire all these people that spend all this money. And so we got ourselves into a burn rate that was completely unsustainable. And I think between that and what I learned about, you know, having the right people on our team, and how, how dangerous it can be to have the wrong people on your team sometimes teaches you how to be able to identify those risks a little sooner, you know, 2021, there were some times that it was pretty touching, go, but we got through it. And we were an infinitely stronger company for it by the time we got through that. So when we started and so 2022, you know, we had learned all this stuff and kind of thinking, okay, you know, we're gonna be able to kind of sail along now, right, and like things are things are gonna, you're gonna get a better I think when when we didn't have as much to worry about in terms of just operation and product, and you're starting to understand a client that much better. That was when I really started to, I think, look inward a little more. When it comes to other beliefs that I had had about business, like, more people make for a better company. Having people around me to tell me what to do is better than me trying to do it myself. You know, any belief that I had that maybe I wasn't, I shouldn't have been in charge of, of, you know, everything. Maybe I'm the domain expert, but but, you know, there's all these other things that I don't know. So I need other people to come in and, and do these things. You know, I think that, that those were beliefs that I started to leave behind. There were a lot of painful lessons and that kind of on a on a personal level through 2020. But overall, you know, we ended up we ended the year. I know myself better. Our clients, our products, our employees, our company, I know all of those things better and I think we're just we're just a much better company again, at the end of 22 than we were at the beginning.

Todd Gagne - So that's good. I appreciate the kind of vulnerability in that I do think that entrepreneurship is a journey of learning. And I think you can't admit that you know it all right. I mean, I think it's a constant evolution. And so I think, and I think there's growth, and every year and it's funny, like every year of, of your company is different. Like, I always kind of joke, it's like, you got to throw away 50% of what you know, and build on the 50% that you do know, but you never know exactly what, you know, what, what 50% To throw away and which one to hold on to. And so I'm going to kind of pivot to another question, which I think is tangential to this is, you know, I was talking with entrepreneurs. So there's kind of four buckets of kind of growth areas that I see all of them go through, I think you're no different. You bring a domain expertise and an understanding of the customer that's super deep. But then you have to layer on all these other pieces of the business, right? There's like finance, and there's sales and marketing, and there's product and technology. And then there's people. And I think that you could probably look at each one of your years and say, in each one of those categories, you got more sophisticated, you learn something, and each one of those. And so do any of those resonate with you where some of those journeys harder than others are easier than others, as you kind of went through them, or were there other ones besides those four that were were big buckets for you.

Deb Clark - I think every one of these was a challenge for me, really, because I did I did come into this business with really just, you know, domain expertise, knowing very little only, you know, just kind of just the bare minimum about, you know, finance or technology, sales, obviously, I was off on that. And HR, you know, it's one thing to have five or six employees, it's another thing to have 30. So, you know, this, this, this was certainly something that, you know, I, as I mentioned in my last answer, I think I, I was aware that there was a lot that I didn't know. But at the time, my way of trying to make up for the gaps in my knowledge was to bring other people in who I thought would be able to fill those gaps with their own knowledge. I think that I think that ultimately, I found that to not be perhaps the best way to do it, or maybe just not the complete way to do it. I think that as the CEO is my responsibility, as part of my job is to have at the very least, like a good kind of working understanding of all of these buckets, you know, finance, sales, technology, HR. They've all been something that, especially this year, I've been really digging into and trying to learn a lot more about, I think the biggest danger is the unknown unknowns, right, like Donald Rumsfeld talked about the unknown, unknown. Um, you know, where I think that where I could have done better. And where I'm really focusing on doing better now and in the future, is in asking questions, that when there's something that I don't fully understand, or maybe it sounds completely out of left field so much that it's kind of scary, like, what? Everyone's talking about this? And I feel like I'm the only one who has no clue. Am I gonna sound stupid? If I ask a question about this? Am I gonna sound dumb if I don't know what everyone's talking about, there have been times that I would have just kept my mouth shut and thought I'm gonna just, you know, like, that's not a good thing to admit, that's not a good thing for a CEO to do. But I don't know if there's other CEOs that do the same thing. But I'm here to admit that I did. And, and I think that that was ultimately my biggest failure. Because when you start asking questions, that's how you make those unknown unknowns, known unknowns, now you can start to go in and you can start to learn about it. And so that was another really big lesson to me that, that honestly, I'm trying to, to apply to all of those buckets. In particular, though, when it comes to accounting, and technology, those are two areas that are really, you know, that there's a lot like each one has their own language that can be very intimidating. And so those two in particular, I'm, like, you know, hyper set on asking so many questions that I drive the people crazy, who are on my team, but I'm learning and and I feel you're about it.

Todd Gagne - And so maybe to summarize that a little bit, I think you're getting better at asking questions to kind of almost have a framework of like, how to think about a domain topic, right? And then you can bring in domain, you know, people that have expertise, and you can call them accountable. You can basically say, here's the direction I'm going here, the goals I'm trying to set, and like at least talk enough of their language to make sure that it's valid, and then hold them accountable for delivering on whatever they're delivering. And so I do think the question and the framework are really and I always joke that it's no black boxes, right? There's no no black box is where you know the input in the output, but know about how it goes, what happens in between. So I do think you're, you're on that journey, you're tackling it. And so that's awesome. I mean, and I think that goes a long way. And I think that happens to me today. Right? There's tons of stuff, I don't know. And I think you just get confident enough to say, It's okay to say, I don't understand what you just said, like I understand the words, but I don't understand what that means. And so I think for entrepreneurs, that's a good skill to have is like, just, I'm interested, and I'm vulnerable enough to be wrong and look silly. So, you know, one of the things that we didn't like really mentioned, is, you know, you're running a business in Casper, Wyoming. Probably, what, 50 60,000 employees or people, population wise, I think it's about that. And so as you're building your business, you know, I think a lot of us in the Midwest always talk about, can we find the right talent. And I think you've had kind of an interesting mixture of people that you've been able to hire locally, and then train, and then people that you've basically said, you have domain expertise, that I'm willing to get you where you are in your location. And so maybe we could talk a little bit about that journey, and how you think that plays out? Is that something that you can continue to replicate over the next couple of years as you continue to grow?

Deb Clark - Yeah, interesting. For sure, you know, the the remote work thing ever since 2020 of courses is has been just huge. I would say, you know, for our analysts, we learned that through trial and error, that that is not a remote position, it does not work. So all of our analysts are here, they all you know, either were already in Casper or moved to Casper for this job. We hire you know, our analysts, our people, our appraisers, we hire for, for attitude and aptitude. Rather than just experience, you know, and for the the analysts that we have, they come from the most varied background, we've got some that are barely out of high school, we have others that, you know, they've they've been, like, the one guy was a wind farm technician, we have geologists from the oil fields here, we just have, you know, someone from the county assessor's office, we just have all kinds of this, like, Wide, wide, wide range. And, and we found that, you know, when, when you've got good clay, you have the those things that really matter, like this great attitude and this hard work ethic, then you can make anything out of that. And so that's been, that's been great. But that said, you know, when when we've looked at hiring for engineering to build our technology, we did you know, we we tried to find someone locally, and we kind of came up empty, like the people who are here are already hired. And so we did end up hiring remote engineers, we have one in Ohio and one in Denver, and they're spectacular. I wish they were here. But we're trying to figure that out. We're trying to make that work. You know, I guess that's just that's just kind of part of the deal of living in a in a town the size. But yeah, we're gonna overcome that for sure.

Todd Gagne - Yep. Okay, good. The next topic I had was talking about just the role of a board. You know, I think a lot of entrepreneurs that I talked to, I think they, they don't have a board for a while. And then basically, maybe they take money that really kind of facilitates they're saying, I want a board position, and then they're like scrambling to go, Okay, what does this mean? And then is it a tax? Do I have to like, meet quarterly, and record all these notes, and then just read out what the business is, and I'm trying to give them the best rosiest version of it. And then I think it kind of goes, you know, iterates, over time, where maybe you put some other people on it that are kind of strategic, or they're helping you solve some of the problems that you normally would see in boards. And then, you know, at some point in time, you might be able to get them to, like, do work for you and right, like, you know, so they're like strategic value add people that are involved in your business, there's more trust, but I kind of see it, like, it evolves over time. I mean, I know a lot of these businesses that you know, when you first get their first board member, they're gone by year three or four, just because like they've just outstripped them from the skill standpoint. So as you're building a board, how does that context fit into this? Does it hold true? Does it ring true to you? And then are you on different journey? And then how did you kind of figure out like, how to who to put on it and what's your mixture?

Deb Clark - I think that being able to really take full advantage of the, you know, the the skill set in the experience of of our board members. You know, that's a work in progress for me too, honestly Todd it's, you know, obviously in the beginning, it was just, it was just just the three of us, very informal, you know, lots of room to kind of, you know, stretch the wings and see what works and what doesn't. Then last year, we brought on our third board member Rob, and you know, who I felt was going to bring in a certain amount of money kind of experience and expertise that was a bit of a gap on our board. And, you know, I think that at that point, things started to maybe get a little bit more serious because we brought someone on who we, you know, there wasn't already this relationship. But, you know, it's certainly been something that I do feel like I need to, I need to continue to work on, in order to really tap the potential that's in my board to be able to, you know, ask you guys to, you know, to, to get involved in certain ways, and perhaps start with asking more questions again, but that's something you know, I think, when it comes to the board, I do think that that's an area that I really need to, you know, to continue to grow and focus on make sure that we're getting the most out of it that we can as a company.

Todd Gagne - Yeah, I think it's an honest answer. And I think almost every startup would say that, because I think there's always probably, if either you don't have the right people on the board, and you're not getting the value of it, or you do have good people on the board that want to help, but then they're just not involved enough in the day to day details to understand how to help. And so I think there's a lot of strategic initiatives or longer term goals that you can pose to them that saying, you know, like, how would you how would you solve some of these problems? Or can you go off and do some research for me on this? And so, I do think that that just happens over time. But I think, you know, to your, to your point, though, they need to understand your business well enough to add value, right? They have all this expertise. And it's like, then they need to understand your business. And so somebody, Rob's an example, it's like, it's going to take him some time to do that. And so, so, but I think they're always a work in progress. So I think that's good. Another one, you know, I think one of the things I probably should have said upfront is, you know, you've almost completely self funded this business, you know, you've basically used proceeds in cash flow from Mountain seed, and as well as your savings, and you talked about some touching go moments and making payroll, and you know, just writing checks, you've had a couple of kind of calm, benevolent people that were close to the business, and people that were maybe even employees putting some money to help out. And then you've taken a little bit of angel money. I'm just curious about how you think about that, because I think it's always this combination of people need capital, but they want their valuation of their company to be larger. So they're giving up less. And so that's this constant, like, you know, cat and mouse game, but at some point in time, everybody's got to get paid. And so maybe talk a little bit starting with how you think about taking capital, and then your angel investment process, and then kind of where you are today.

Deb Clark - Okay. Yeah, we are, like almost entirely self funded, you know, thanks to the proceeds of one company, kind of, you know, helping to shoulder up the other. We did, except a small angel round, in that we closed in 2021. And that was actually one that we initially presented to them about, about 18 months prior. And they did not choose to invest. That was the first time I'd ever stood up in front of anyone to talk about this company, was my first act as any kind of leader or CEO or founder. And I mean, I think it was bad. It was so bad. It was I was just completely crushed. I thought, oh my god, I'm this I'm never doing this again. I was heartbroken. I literally went out to my truck in the parking lot and just broke down. It was so bad. I'm not, you know, the kind of just break into tears. But that was like, That was That was bad. But I mean, bless their hearts. They were right. We were too early that we weren't ready. So 18 months later, you know, stayed in touch with one of them in particular Jared, and 18 months later, he said, you know, why don't you come back and pitch again. And we'd like to also share you with the Black Hills. This was breakthrough 307 here in Wyoming, they wanted to and then their sister that you're on there and Rapid and came back pitched again. And that time they went ahead and invested. So that was that was you know, there's a lot of things that I learned through through that process as well. Aside from that, you know, we we ended 2022 cashflow positive and decided point yeah, this decided at that point that we were going to, to go invest in technology, hire a couple of engineers, we're going to invest in marketing and brought on smart marketing firm and exactly the same time that banks you know, the high interest rates and everything kind of just caught up. And so bank loan activity slowed down. And so we found ourselves in this situation all of a sudden were okay now we're not cashflow positive right now. We have a little but what are we going to do? So, the way I kind of saw it was we had four options, we could have curbed our growth, I could have, you know, not chosen to bring on these engineers and said, Nope, we're just not going to do that. We're gonna just bring everything in, so that we can stay in the black. And we'll just stay here until things turn around. And then we'll start running again, I didn't want to do that. The second was for me to continue to fund it myself through my other company. I think I've kind of paid for my bases, I didn't want to do that. So I'm good. The third option was to consider going after investments do we want to go raise with sales being down the economic environment right now, you know, the books not looking the greatest. I just thought, you know, and not to mention all of the unknowns we have around this technology, like we have ideas for how it's gonna help. But that those are aren't proven yet. And we don't know really, to what extent until we kind of get into it, we have goals, but until we reach them, nobody knows. So the fourth option we had was to borrow. So we ended up doing that, we went ahead and got a line of credit, that gives us a little bit of breathing room, so that if we don't quite make it month after month, we've got some time that is going to get us through this kind of slowdown in loan activity, which is fine, it's gonna give us an opportunity to, to learn about technology, get a little farther down that road and have a much better understanding what it's going to look like and what it's going to be able to do for us in terms of, you know, efficiencies and metrics and overall performance of the company. So that we can be in a way better position in six months, or nine months for us to say, alright, now, do we want to, again, look at investment? Are we in a much better position now with what we know with maybe where the money might be that if at that point, we decide to do that to do something like invest in technology, not just cover the burn? You know, we know how to run this company so that we're not losing money? It's more about do we want to grow? Do we want to invest in it? And what do we want to do to make that happen?

Todd Gagne - Yeah, and I mean, I guess what I hear out of that is, I think you're, you're not looking at money is binary, right? Like, I mean, there's different types of money, there's types of different value of money. And I think one of the things that you're starting to do in your business is how do I use technology to create scale. And so creating scale creates margin margin creates better, you know, equity in the company, and valuation. And so you're starting to tie a whole bunch of things. And that goes back to finance. And that goes back to like technology and stuff. But I think it's all wrapped around this kind of money piece of it. And so I think you have a way more sophisticated view of how to and what type of capital to raise at what point in time, and I think, I think that's a really good recognition, from your perspective, that there's the right type of money to come in at different points in time. And at some point in time, you may need larger amounts that are smarter that maybe have some domain expertise around it, versus a bank, that's basically just saying, Okay, I'm gonna basically be a shortstop when you, you know, have AR issues, and collection problems. And so, so I think it's all good. And I think it's an evolution of just your thinking, too. So I think that's, that's awesome. I only have two more questions. And they're kind of getting to be maybe a little less serious. But like, I look back and I have some opinions about what your superpower is. But I'd kind of curious from your standpoint about what you think your superpower is and getting your your, your point to this. I mean, I think from your origin story, to you know, moving from being bartending to a professional gig from a professional gig to being an entrepreneur, like there's a there's a thread in there, and I'm curious about what you think that is.

Deb Clark - Yeah. Our third board member Rob, actually, he was the first one to say it, you spot on, he said that my chip on my shoulder is my superpower. And at first I thought what the hell is that? No way, like, because you kind of have this negative, you know, image when you think of someone with a chip on their shoulder, but, but I actually think that he's right. You know, when, if you want to look at a chip on his shoulder, when I spent so much of my life with very little or maybe nothing at all, you know, no real sense of self or belief in, in what I could do or what I was capable of, you know, now that I'm starting to find it, I'm starting to get a hold of a corner of life and I'm just, I will be damned if I'm ever gonna let that go. You know, I think that it's part of the reason why I can be pretty bold, or persistence or driven or maybe kind of courageous. Keeps me out there. You know, willing to kind of, you know, be the face So this kind of disruptive company, you know, so yeah, I think it's, I think that that, that all ties back to, you know, to, to day after day throughout 30 years, you just kind of home this, this, you know, that experience and turn it into something that that ultimately has been incredibly positive for me.

Todd Gagne - So, well, it's good. I agree with you. And I mean, that determination, I think, is what's driving a lot of that I just in, I think you when you talk to entrepreneurs, a lot of them have something, right, there's a fire that keeps doing it, because you're taking a road, that is not like, just go punch the clock and go nine to five and collect the paycheck and have two weeks of vacation. And, and so that's a different road. And I think everybody's got something whether it's a chip on their shoulder or something in their background. You know, somebody that's inspired them to do it. It's interesting to listen to and hear. So. So the last question I have is one that I do with every everyone to kind of close it out. I think that the question is, what's the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you? I think it's always important to realize that, you know, as much as we're talking about, you know, breaking up new industries and challenging the status quo. It's about humanity. It's about people. It's about compassion. It's about empowerment. And I'm curious, from your standpoint, what resonates? Or what story would resonate with you in that in that category?

Deb Clark - It's interesting, because you told me that you gave me a heads up that you were going to be asking this question. So the first thing that came to my mind, you know, it just kept coming back to my mind. So, you know, there's been a lot of things that people have done for me. But I think that, that the one that really does stand out the most is not just because of, you know, of what was done for me, but how much it took for that individual to give that to me, and I would say it's Neil Hillston is the old ag appraiser, the dad of the firm that hired me back in 2010. Now, he's very embedded in this agriculture industry, good ol boy industry, the good old boy states. And he, he not only took me on as his trainee, and dragged me around to these ranch inspections. But this man, he, he kind of, in a way, he put his own reputation on the line. And he took the barbs and the bullets from the other guys. In the ranch industry, we're giving him a hard time about hiring a girl. He did all that he never blinked. He never ever treated me in any way other than I was absolutely his equal. And his belief in me, helped me to really find my feet here. You know, through that entire three years that I was his training, you know, and he still he still works for me, I actually brought him out of retirement to come work for me again. So he works part time. But you know, he's, he's, he's with me, he's still my mentor. He's my constant supporter. He's my friend. And just to have a guy like that, believe in me the way that he did, it really changed my life.

Todd Gagne - That's cool. I appreciate you, you sharing that it's, it's always cool to hear, like we do so much on our own, but like the people around us are part of the reason we get there. Right. And so, and I think we can't lose sight of that. And so I appreciate you sharing that. And that's just a cool story. So. So Deb, I appreciate you sharing all these ideas and stories with us today, I think to wrap this up, you know, over the years that I've known you, I just, it's amazing to me the amount of professional kind of development you've had, with these challenges, you had a core set of understanding and skills and a belief in what you're trying to do. And then over time, you've just kind of accreted and learned all of the different pieces around it. And to me, that's a perfect example of entrepreneurship, right? Like it's not it's a constant evolution, we're always trying to learn, we're always faced with a different scenario, you know, who would have planned to do something in COVID, who would have planned when interest rates go up? Like, we don't know, we don't have a crystal ball, tell this stuff. And we have to figure these things out. And so your story is inspirational from that standpoint, and it's exciting to see where it goes. So I think there's a ton of lessons to be learned from this and hopefully the people listening you don't get that as well. So thanks again for taking the time.

Deb Clark - Thank you so much for having me. I've enjoyed it. Okay, good.