Todd Gagne:

Tyler and Brennan, welcome to the podcast, guys. I appreciate it. This is the first time I've had, like, multiple guests on the show. And so I really appreciate you guys taking the time.

Tyler:

Yeah. Thanks for having us. Good morning. Yeah.

Todd Gagne:

It is good morning. Seems a little crazy out. But why don't we start a little bit about kind of what your business is about? So maybe just talk to me a little bit about what Journeyman really is just to give kind of people a little bit of overview.

Tyler:

Sounds good. Yeah. So we built the Journeyman to be a professional connection platform and business management software for those in Wildland Fire. Tyler and I, you know, have owned and operated a EMS company in the space for a few years now. Before that, we were contractors going out on fires. And so, yeah, we got really passionate about the space and the people that we'd meet out there and struggled with some of the things as far as operating, you know, multiple people in different states.

Todd Gagne:

Maybe talk to me, go all the way back. Like how'd you end up here, right? You guys, like you guys were in the military to start with, is that right?

Brennan:

Yeah. We're both from Rapid City. We actually graduated in the same class in high school and then both joined the Marine Corps. Not together or anything, but then we both got out, moved back here. I moved back to become a paramedic and Yep. Did that and then started working as a paramedic at Wildland Fires. And then somewhere in the middle there, Brennan, I can let him tell his side, but kinda reached out and was like, hey, what are

Tyler:

you doing? It seems interesting. Yeah. Bailed on electrical engineering school. I went to school of mines for three and a half years actually and quickly well, maybe not so quickly realized that's not what I wanted to do. And so I was doing paramedicine. So did that. And then him and I actually worked down on Pine Ridge together as partners for a while too before even going out on wildland fires. We've stuck around.

Todd Gagne:

Well, that's good. So maybe just talk to me a little bit about like, what is the, like, when you guys get engaged in a fire and stuff, like, what type of services, like, how does this all work, right? We know there's a wildfire. There's a need for people, ambulances, crews, you know, all sorts of equipment. And so like, what's a daily, like if you get a call, like what do you guys end up doing with your teams?

Brennan:

So we contract with the US Forest Service to provide those medical resources. About fiftyfifty of the wildland firefighting force or so is private, so the federal government does not provide the medical side, and that's where folks like us come in. We currently, with Minute Man EMS, have ten ambulances and employees that are from all over the country. It's seasonal, you know, so we don't like, right now, we're not doing anything. Brennan and I are getting ready for the season, but our employees are out there living their lives. I can let Brennan talk about what happens like once the season starts and when we get that call and how that all looks and how all these moving parts across the nation led us to creating an app. Yeah. K.

Tyler:

So when those fires get big enough, they will start to order outside resources. And when I mean outside resources, that would be like non federal, non state assets kind of going to that contractor world. So dispatch will call us saying that they need specific resources, whether that be ambulances or EMTs or rope rescue teams to specific fires. And then we got about fifteen minutes to say yes or no. So, you know, we find the right person, make sure we have the appropriate gear that we can fulfill that within the local area, and then we accept that contract. Our guys will go out for for sure fourteen days, but could extend out to twenty one days out on the Wildland fire working up to sixteen hour days, you know, no days off. Pretty, pretty intense out there. Austere environment, not a lot of communications. And this will happen in multiple states at a time with tons of different resources. And then when they get done, they'll leave the fire, and that resource will go back to active and wait for the next dispatch call.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. It seems, you know, it seems like there's a lot of coordination. You know, there's a sense of urgency. Right? There's a fire, we've got to do something. And then marshaling all these resources and stuff seems like a pretty complex task to get all the equipment and people in the right location at the right time. Is there any story or anything about something your team had done that's outside of the ordinary? I guess what I'm trying to do is more illustrate the point of like what a day in the life looks like. And so either one of you, if you've got a good story about maybe an extreme scenario that happened on a fire that you and your teams were involved in.

Brennan:

Brandon, you were there that time the dozer pushed a tree on a guy and, you know, nearly killed him. Wasn't there for that.

Tyler:

It's one of those things for medical at least. Everyone out there is very, very safe. It is a rare instance or occurrence that someone does get hurt. So besides seeing some pretty cool lay of the lands and some pretty extreme fire behavior, when you do get those patients every now and again, it can be at day crew, night crew, and you may have to care for that patient for a long time. Being out in the middle of nowhere, you don't have necessarily a hospital close by. So we always have to find super qualified, super proficient people that can handle those kinds of patients, just in the EMS world, for example.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. Yeah, I remember, I I just even remember you telling me a story about like, you know, your ambulances are not like traditional ambulances that just run around on the streets. You know, they're they're beefy. You gotta take them off road. You're on fire roads. You've got like Starlink in them. You've told me some stories about, you know, basically getting as far as your ambulance can go and then I gotta basically truck in another seven or eight miles to get to somebody. And so, I mean, physical fitness, it's just the tools of the trade are pretty amazing and different than the way I think we traditionally think about a lot of this stuff.

Tyler:

Yeah. And a lot of people forget about all the different industries involved in Wildland Fire. Most of the time they hear Wildland Fire, they think, you know, it's their local department sending out a couple boys. They forget that there's aviation and and CDL heavy trucking equipment, aviation, all the way down to food and batteries. It's a huge

Todd Gagne:

Logistics is a huge thing in that. Yeah. So I think we've established you guys had some domain expertise. You're deep in this industry. You have a lot of nuance understanding of kind of what's going on. Pivoting to like building a business to support this seems like a jump, right? Where it's like you've been all your lives in this kind of environment and you basically are doing it successfully building or running in a more of a kind of a traditional business. A, what made you want to go do something in technology? And did you have a lot of technology and business background to make that jump?

Brennan:

Well, we were tired of turning down resource orders from the government because we didn't have like a person. Like Brendan mentioned, you got about ten to fifteen minutes to let them know if you do if you can or can't. And it's not a big deal at the beginning of the year when everyone's available, but in the middle of the season or the end when people are when resources are limited. I remember the time at the end of October of twenty twenty three, we thought fire season was over. I was on a fishing trip, and my phone rang from the Forest Service in Colorado, and they said, do you have a paramedic that you can get here to this fire in Colorado? But they have to be Colorado licensed. So, essentially, I wanted a way to open my phone, and I, you know, I need paramedic, and he needs this call, and maybe this distance from this area. And we had to turn it down, which is tens of thousands probably in revenue, but we were doing that multiple times in a year, so really just tired of turning down business. But then once we started building this, we're like, started to realize, wow, there's so many business management, so much business management software we can add to it to help us be more organized and efficient and companies like us, of course.

Tyler:

Brandon can speak on our tech background. Yeah. So I think for sure we had some business background. Tyler, obviously, starting Meneman EMS, that being successful over four or five seasons now. I had actually tried to start medical cannabis cultivation in South Dakota when it first came out, but pulled out of that. So we had a little bit of business, you know, getting into it, but for sure had zero tech. Like technology, you know, build my own home PC. But as far as, you know, the nitty and gritty of what goes into a software, zero clue.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. Yeah. And so I think you guys found fire through Aaron Gernauger, I think, it was, wasn't it? Tyler, you had a meeting. I think there was some mentorship program online that you reached out, and I I don't know if it was kinda through Veterans Association or something like that. And then basically, we had a conversation soon after that. So basically, I think that's how you guys got introduced to us. Is that correct?

Brennan:

Yeah, essentially I found a veteran mentor and told him this idea that Brennan and I were brainstorming. And he was like, I know a guy, you know, Aaron, who's in their outer Rapid City. And it was all just kind of weird how it lined up being named wildfire labs. We're in the wildfire. It's perfect.T

Tyler:

That's what I was getting.

Todd Gagne:

Did that just for you guys. Just for you guys. Yeah, exactly. Well, that's good. And so, I mean, as you kind of started to do your evaluation of our program and kind of what we were talking about, maybe just talk to me a little bit about what you think you needed and what you were looking for, right? Because I think there's lots of entrepreneurs that I think are in a similar situation as you, right? I have a good idea. I have some domain expertise, but like getting this to revenue and to a company that actually has a product, that's a gap. And I think, you know, whether you're looking at Techstars, you're looking at Generator, you're looking at other programs, you're looking at community leaders, What can you tell me about like the evaluation process to basically picking a partner that actually can help you get there? Because I think lots of people are well intended. I think lots of people have good ideas. But it's like unless you're finding people that have actually been in those worlds or actually have done this, they're not gonna be nearly as valuable as somebody who's, yeah, yeah, got some ideas and I can help you, or I've never run a business before. You know, we definitely see a lot of that. So I'm kinda curious about, like, your evaluation process and why, like, Wildfire was a good fit other than the name.

Tyler:

For sure the name. But having I think the biggest appeal for us with Wildfire Labs was having a a good starting point on the whole tech thing. Right? The customer discovery was something we never woulda, you know, found out about building your MVP. And then just taking these bite sized chunks week over week and seeing that progress and understanding, okay. There is a few things that you gotta do beforehand, you know, before ever getting into where you can actually go and sell the thing or build the thing. So taking that time to kinda understand your guys' process, That, I think, gave us a lot of confidence making the decision to go with you guys for sure. Yeah. Mainly the team.

Brennan:

You know? You could tell that you guys had kind of all been there and done that in the software industry and different areas of it. So I knew it wasn't gonna be like taking a business class at a college from a professor who'd never had a business, you know? So that was the biggest thing to tell you guys had done it before.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah, and I think one of the things that's unique for us is we're not putting you in a cohort where you've got to keep moving forward, you know, at certain speed. And I think that's where we see some problems too, where it's like everybody's in the same thing, and this six weeks you've to get this done, if you don't do it, we're going to move on. I think what we're trying to do is basically say, you got your own pace as long as you're actually doing the work. We should make sure the foundations and the and the prerequisites to a lot of this stuff is actually nailed before we move on to the next one. And so I do think that's another one that I think, is important from that. You guys had maybe a unique one where I think most founders come to us with one partner and an idea and then we're basically trying to find them, you know, a co founder. You guys had that together. And so what's interesting to me or maybe I'm asking you to comment on is, you know, this is not to be taken lightly, right? There's going to be some challenges. There's going to be some disagreements. There's going to be some dividing and conquering of work. And if you don't find the right partner to do this with, burnout gets high. And if you don't find the right person, you're giving up equity in a company that may or may not be worth anything. And so your partnership and understanding kind of how you guys work and you've had a bunch of experience together seems like a really good way where it's like you knew what you're getting into. And I'm sure you had to work on some roles and responsibilities as you went through the program, but I think you guys were a step ahead because you had a team and you had worked together in the past.

Tyler:

A hundred percent. Tyler and I for sure knew that we could get along and spend some time together working on the ambulance, the short patients, high intensity, being out, doing some rope rescue on wildland fires is the same thing. So there was confidence there. We obviously both came in with domain expertise of wildland fire, but then we'd had to realize, okay. Someone's gotta figure out the tech stuff and the product side too as we go along. We can't both be, you know, the same horn on on the same bull. So, you know, for me, taking some time out and learning a lot about what it what a software actually is, what a front end, back end API, while keeping up all with the new AI tools. You know? It's super important to be able to split that work. It always takes longer, more expensive, and your burnout, like you said, is just can get super high, even if you're passionate about it. Right? Because a lot of the times when you care about or you're super excited about the thing you're doing, you're gonna wanna spend more time on it, And then you blink and it's six months down the road the rest of your life fell apart because, you know, you spent too much time in one area.

Brennan:

Yeah. Brennan was being quite modest earlier about this lack of tech experience. I have very little. Brennan maybe not at no software business experience, but he's very tech savvy. If if we had two of me, you know, we would have it would have folded by now, probably. So, but yeah, he's the one driving the tech side. And at the beginning, remember we were making the wireframes, and I was trying to learn, and then there's this point I was like, I don't think this is the best use.

Todd Gagne:

You took your time.

Brennan:

Yeah, I'd be better doing something else. But yeah, we wouldn't be anywhere if it wasn't how tech savvy Brennan is.

Todd Gagne:

I mean, there's stuff we

Brennan:

do together.

Todd Gagne:

I guess Brennan, I would like to even say, like, I think you invested a ton of time understanding some of these no code solutions. You prototyped a bunch of stuff. You got it to a certain point and then turned it over to a developer. I mean, there was a pretty big learning curve. And so yes, you have an aptitude to understand some of these tools, but you made the investment to go do it. And I think like, that's awesome. I mean, I think, you know, entrepreneurship is that, right? You're constantly finding a problem and you're having to figure out at least eighty percent of it so that you can understand what you're talking about so that you can help other people. I'm curious on, we have a philosophy at Wildfire, which is no black boxes, right? Which means as founders, you need to have a working knowledge of every aspect of the business, right? You don't need to be an expert in all of it. But like Brendan, this idea of technology is a good one, right? You invested enough time to understand the right questions to ask or to, like, hold the developer accountable that you ended up working with at the end. You know, you've got to do stuff with go to market. You've to do stuff with marketing. You've to do stuff with customer discovery. All of these things, you're not going to be the expert in your business over time. You're going to pick a couple places. But what you really need to know is I need a working knowledge of everything in my business to at least a high level so that I can add value to these people that maybe come and help me. And so I'm curious about that. And sometimes I think founders feel that uncomfortable. Right? They're like, I'm a tech guy or I'm a business guy or I'm a sales guy and you're asking me to go do something else. And what you find is they wanna over focus on it because they're so good at it. Right? So a developer will say, I'll add new features versus going and talking to the customer because I don't wanna go do that. And so how did that work for you guys? Was there some uncomfortable feelings about like, gotta go do this and I don't really wanna do it? Or did you feel like the split between the two of you was like, that's his lane and this is mine?

Tyler:

I think fiftyfifty, Tyler will talk a little bit more into it. Like, we had definitely had our individual lanes that we would stay into. However, we bounce ideas off of each other really, really well. So still making sure we kinda had that that co op debate time. Yeah. Tyler, you can

Brennan:

Yeah. I mean, there's definitely things you find yourself not wanting to do, but kinda

Todd Gagne:

Of course.

Brennan:

Has to. Yeah. And there's certainly things we could and should and will get better at, but it's a lot.

Tyler:

Media is a big one.

Brennan:

Yeah. Social media.

Tyler:

Getting getting your face in front of your brand and getting your voice out is something that can greatly benefit you. But if you've never spent time in front of a camera, you know, recording yourself, hearing yourself talk, you're gonna be less apt to go do that. You know, if you like you said, if you get too tight on the product and you don't ever talk to your customers or get some validation back from them, then you could end up designing a bunch of things that only you're gonna use. So, yeah, it's an interesting dynamic.

Todd Gagne:

It is. And it's not easy. Right? So you can talk to me about social media. Right? We've talked to you quite a bit about like just raising your exposure. You're doing a lot of good things, but are you telling the stories to go do it? And so I guess what I'm trying to think about is is how do you find an authentic voice that represents you, right? Like you see all these influencers and you see all these people that are super good at it. But like, I think that what we gotta do is every entrepreneur has to find their authentic voice and a way to communicate what they're doing. And it needs to come through, right? Like you guys are passionate dudes. You've got great experiences. But how do you find that authentic way to tell the story in a way that's like that comes across as being authentic but like doesn't feel disingenuous or slimy? Because I think some people get that. Right? And I think that you got like, we're all in different generations. And I think, you know, I look at my kids, they're, like, super comfortable with all this stuff. Right? And, like, I'm learning new things. Right? Because that's not where I grew up.

Tyler:

Right. Yeah. I mean, you for sure get your confidence in starting even just with your your customer interviews. Yeah. If you're able to talk about the problem with someone in the area or in the space and then have that conversation, it'll feel more natural than, you know, jumping straight into going to an event and having to get up in front of a hundred people. True that. And and everyone will probably learn their own tricks. Tyler does a lot of the the public speaking now because he's just put in the reps. Yeah. And, you know, he's he's able to work through his ums and ahs better than I am. Not that I don't still practice, but again, splitting it up.

Todd Gagne:

Divide and conquer. Yeah. Yeah. So Tyler, are you a natural, you get up on stage and entertain?

Brennan:

No, I guess in the military, I a large part of what I did was teaching, so I was kinda Okay. Comfortable with stepping up in front of people and talking about it. But, about finding your voice, we did try, like, a social media agency at the beginning, and, the the messaging just wasn't great. Like, we've learned that, okay, someone in Wildland Fire kind of needs to make this content, so the messaging is correct. Because you just turn it over to a social media agency and they start writing, I don't just all these things that we find cringey about being brave and be a hero, this and that, and like, at least for us, stuff's kinda cringey. And so we Even to our customers. You know?

Todd Gagne:

They Yeah. I was gonna say, it's not authentic. Right? And I think and I would say this goes back to your domain expertise. Right? You have a domain expertise about the vernacular, the people, how they talk, the words that they use. And if you can't use those words to reach your audience, like, the social media group is not gonna do that. Have to do that. You have to build content around that. And so I do think that's a huge issue where each one of your companies or, you know, each company that we do with, they have this domain expertise that understands. And so, like, I sold, you know, we sold software to finance people. Talking to finance people is super different than talking to salespeople. Right? Like, they're they have a whole different vernacular of what they're doing. If you use the wrong words, they just tune out. They're like, you don't understand me. And I think it's the same thing for you guys.

Tyler:

Yeah. Absolutely. It won't resonate with them at all. They won't remember it. They won't wanna interact with your initial outreach messages, things like that. It's it's super important. I can't remember who said it. Tyler, you showed it to me. You know, if someone goes to research your business, you'd have twenty four hours of readable, watchable, listenable content out there about your business, and that's a lot. You know? You can't just do six second reels, you know, to get that amount of content. You have to just get out there, practice it, and get comfortable with it like anything else.

Todd Gagne:

So I'm curious. Like, I'm gonna draw a parallel, which I I don't know if it's right, but I think maybe this is where you guys are going. So one of the things that I did was, you know, like a year and a half ago, I started writing online. And I'm not a writer. Like, just flat out. I'm not. Right? I mean, I can pump out stuff and it was hard to even just get to the point of doing, you know, twice a week writing an article and going, what the hell am I gonna write about? But what I started to do was to think about, like, being a thought leader in this space. I've been an entrepreneur. I've been involved in ten different startups over the time. What's broken? What's like what are problems that we hear? And when you start writing about the things that, basically, entrepreneurs and founders care about, then you start to gain an audience. And so we went from zero to like eleven thousand in the last eighteen months. Right? The podcast is part of this. And so it's a, party trying to find my authentic voice, and it's also trying to say, do I have a strong opinion? Because there's so much content out there that if you can't differentiate what you're doing. And so my point in explaining this is what is the way you think about thought leadership in your world? And does like the marketing and the way that you talk about it, I think that your product starts with that, right? There's a better way to do this, right? And so you're talking about like how is my solution going to do this in a way that's different than what we've historically done. But to then you have to wrap a message and an explanation that basically transcends just your product, but it's about like how the industry needs to evolve.

Brennan:

I was just gonna say that, you know, part of that is trusting yourself kind of, because there's times of self doubt when you're like, why would anyone really wanna listen to me about this? But you know, you kind of have to remember that we've ran a successful business in the space for the last four going on five years, and we were doing it before that. Kind of just remembering that, you know, we're not the most experienced people in the industry, but we do have, know, experience and a bit of authority, if you will, not authoritarian authority, but, you know, like, our voice carries

Todd Gagne:

Credibility. It's credibility. Credibility.

Brennan:

There you go.

Todd Gagne:

Yep. Yep.

Tyler:

Yeah. And then just realizing, you know, how how the industry even needed it. When you're walking around and all your employees are carrying around carbon copies and paper copies and things like that, it's a pretty good indication that something could have done Right?

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. Yeah.

Tyler:

So having those conversations with with people in your in your industry or that you work with is a a great way to kinda validate some of that.

Todd Gagne:

Well, which to me goes back to customer validation. Right? Like, do you understand the problem really well? And if you do, you can tell stories, your product can evolve, all that sort of stuff, it happens. And so Yeah. I mean, it really it really boils down to really understanding your customer and the domain expertise that goes around it. Talk to me a little bit about the community. Right? Like, I think one of the things that we've been trying to do is you get to build with other founders, right? And so people are going through the program. Know, Tyler, you talked about like, you know, trying to do wireframes. You know, there's problems in all of this and I think what we're starting to see is people share best practices. People are sharing, Hey, I had this problem or I heard this from you in a mastermind. I've been through that problem, or I can help it. And you guys are starting to help the next crop that's coming through. And so maybe talk to me a little bit about the importance of community. They don't have the same domain expertise, they have different than you do, but they're kind of going on a similar journey.

Brennan:

Yeah, sometimes it the mastermind groups are great because it takes maybe you're thinking you're too deep in the problem. It takes someone who's like removed and not even in your industry and just sees it from a different perspective, and sometimes it's really simple. So, I know we've lent some, I think, good information to other people in the mastermind groups and vice versa. It's just nice to have other people that you can bounce things off of in the the biweekly meeting, and then the other wildfire labs functions are always a good use of time.

Tyler:

Yeah. I was gonna say the biweekly meetings are a great great jolt to kinda either get pulled back on your heels if you're going off a little too much, but then also just keep you motivated, keep moving forward because, you know, life is still going on while you're doing all this. So having those other individuals around is nice. But also just the the small world, if you will, that, you know, there's another startup that sometimes they benefit each other. Right? We met another mastermind founder that she's able to kinda work in our space and the work she's doing, we can kinda benefit from as far as customer outreach. So, like, I never would've thought it happened between another founder type of thing, but it's super cool. You get You get to do some things together.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. So let's dig in a little bit on the mastermind because I do think it's a critical piece. I guess one of the things that I personally have experienced is there's like a thousand number one priorities in a startup to go do. Right? It's just super hard. And I think what we're trying to do is basically, we have a methodology, but then I think what you're trying to do every two weeks is what is the most important thing to do now? And then how do you create focus on that? And it's not twelve things. It's one or two things, maybe three. And basically creating focus on the right things so that you continue to build and then you're basically trying to push out some of the noise where there's a lot of things that seem important, but are they the right things? And so I'm curious on aid, have you had that problem where like it's just a prioritization exercise where it's like I got a lot of things, I don't know exactly what to go do. And then to me, the other part of this is the accountability. Right? Where it's like saying, don't wanna go to that next meeting and be embarrassed. I gotta get in front of everybody. Gotta write the stuff down. I gotta tell people. So there's some social guilt that goes with this that you know, good or bad, I think does help you make sure that you're keeping track. And we've knocked some people out of the mastermind because they're just not making progress. And that's the way it should be.

Tyler:

Absolutely. It should be. Yeah. And Tyler can speak to the accountability. As far as what we've benefited from, I think, is is we're really good at maybe the the mid and long term goals. We don't always understand the, like you said, the one to two steps that's going you know, one to two steps, three different times to get to that medium goal. And so going to the masterminds, us being able to say, hey. Here's where we're at. This is what we're having problems on, but we're trying to get to this point. And everyone to be like, well, have you tried this? Well, I think you should do this. And then we're able to take that, digest it, and, you know, put it into an executable plan and move on.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. Yeah. Tyler, anything to add?

Brennan:

I kinda like that people get kicked out just because, like, that let me know that we're not in, a participation public school style event. Like, I don't wanna be in an organization where everyone can make it, you know, because that's not business, certainly tech businesses. So, yeah, I think it's good to know that, hey. You kinda have to perform or you're gonna not be on the inside anymore. So that was cool to to see you guys. Not everyone can make it in things, and I want to be a part of groups that aren't for everybody.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah, yeah. It's not easy, right? And so you want the more people that can make it through, the better. But I do think you want that incentive that says, If you're not going to perform, we're just going cut bait. Because it's our time, right? And so, you know, and the way our model works, right, we just take equity in your company. And so if you guys don't succeed, great, we don't make any money and we never win. So we should cut bait on the ones that aren't working and double down on the ones that are. And so you guys are still here, and it's it's working great. So I I appreciate that.

Tyler:

And just to add on one thing with the the cutting the people that that aren't putting the work in, you also have to remember, those are if you didn't cut them out, they would be the founders that you'd be surrounding yourself with. And if they're not getting their work done and they're not progressing, why do I necessarily wanna learn from them? You know? Right. So by having that trimming, right, trimming up the plant, you're keeping higher quality people who are motivated and driven to reach their goals no matter the difficulty because it's all doable.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. Yeah. It's just work. It's just So I guess maybe the next question is a little bit hard. You know, I think, and I guess the reason I'm bringing this up is because I think most founders have it. You guys have a day job, and then you have this. And basically, I think from the day one, I've kind of said, when do you guys cut over? You know, what is success and who starts to own the technology platform and really doing this versus kind of the traditional EMS program that you have today? And so maybe talk to me a little bit about that. You have a cyclical business today, which made it easy to create space to actually work on this. But like what is the cutover where, you know, maybe, Brennan, you say, I'll do what I can to help the existing EMS, but I'm really gonna be focused on journeymen because that's where we need to have some leadership. And it can't be just a seasonal thing. I gotta continue to build on it. I think every single founder has this problem. I have a day job. I'm trying to go do this, and at some point, I gotta cut over.

Brennan:

Yeah. Brandon sacrificed a lot last year. Like, he he elected to focus on the journeyman, and he didn't go out on wildland fires, which is something I know he loves doing and gets paid well-to-do. So he essentially sacrificed all that to get us where we are now. Definitely appreciate that because the the EMS business has to run too. It it does well, and we have to keep that afloat because that's kind of why we're in the unique position of being able to fund ourselves. So, that it's kind of the biggest problem is we have two two things that should be kind of the normal person's full time thing.

Todd Gagne:

You know? So

Brennan:

We're working on always balancing that out. I think we're doing pretty good. We're not always could

Tyler:

be better, right? But yeah, Brennan took the He made the sacrifice last year and stayed home and focused on the app. So Only for one one perspective. He kept the EMS thing afloat. So, you know, if that one pays, you know, we're able to bootstrap and keep the majority for us. So it's, again, having a good cofounder. You know? If if Tyler was doing this by himself or I was doing this by myself, absolute you know, not impossible because there are people out there that get it done. But, I mean, just so much more difficult. So it's nice still being in the space that Tyler and I can now take our product out. You know, if we're not necessarily on the fire line as much, but we're still traveling around the fires, which means we can still show the product to people out there. And, yes, eventually, it'll probably get to a point where, you know, you say, Sayonara, that was my last fire season. You know? But, hopefully, part of our product is to make that life, our business easier to manage and run. So it's almost a it's a internal test that, you know, we're doing what we wanna do.

Todd Gagne:

So maybe talking a little bit about the future, like, you know, you have, I don't know, what, a thousand people on the platform today or something like that. I don't know, maybe, I don't know the latest numbers, but you've done pretty well.

Tyler:

Yeah, we're over fifteen hundred users and seventy three registered companies.

Todd Gagne:

That's awesome. That's good. As you fast forward though, like what do you think the next two to three years or even four years look like? I mean, where does this continue, like both from a functionality standpoint, what problems are you solving that are kind of tangential around firefighting? Like, I think you have a bigger vision. And so maybe talk to me a little bit about like this idea of you start with something that's a beachhead and you're basically just trying to match people with jobs and certification, right? That's where this started. And then, but you have this like longer vision about like assets and how to move them and consulting type work and contracts. And then, you know, like this isn't just the United States over time, right? You've got Canada, you've got Australia. There's plenty of wildfires happening in the globe. Talk to me a little bit about the vision and how you go from something that's like maybe simpler and really focused on a pain point to an industry wide solution that basically solves a lot of problems?

Tyler:

Yeah. So like Tyler said earlier, the beachhead for us kind of was after missing that contract, know, tens of thousands of dollars. We're like, well, what are the current hiring processes out there for contractors? And we had played around with them before, you know, we'd sent out one on Indeed or USAJOBS, and you get six hundred applicants back, but that's not what I want. That doesn't save me time. Now I gotta I gotta sift through six hundred people. So starting with a way to pre vet some people like LinkedIn, I think what we kind of found was there was a lot of platforms out there like LinkedIn or communication devices or messaging or whatever that existed, but they were too generalized. I like to call them the Walmarts, but those don't really allow your business to operate efficiently if you're just using five or six generic services. So then identifying, like I said, carbon copies is a pretty good indicator digitizing, Everyone has to be compliant and be able to pull up records and things like that of who is where, especially in EMS when you're dealing with patients and other things like that. So, yeah. Tyler, anything to add?

Brennan:

Yeah, I kind of said earlier about fifty percent of the forests of wildland firefighting is private, so, and that's where we started, because that's what we know. But a lot of the state and federal agencies could certainly use this. We see a lot of issues with the current ordering system that the federal government uses. So long term, like providing a solution that we could sell to the federal government would be great. We're kind of lucky to be in an industry that is behind the times. As we've mentioned, there's literal handwritten on paper documents all over the place in this industry. We're bringing some fixes to that this year, but it's only gonna get bigger and better over the next couple years.

Tyler:

Yeah. Sally and I always joke that, you know, people are out there saving we're out there trying to save the forest. However, you know, they print, I can't imagine, millions of pages of paper across hundreds of amp your incidents every year, and it just doesn't make sense to some degree. Like, there's gotta be a better way to do it. And with technology advance, that was the only thing I was gonna add. Right? Three, four years ago, no one had a Starlink out there. And now it's pretty frequent, like, people's communications and access to technology in remote areas is getting better. So that also helps. I think it was a maybe a combination perfect storm type thing.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. So maybe I can put some words in your mouth because I I guess I'm been around what you're doing. So when I was thinking about like the future and stuff, you know, you started off with this kind of job board and trying to connect people. You know, you've talked about like adding the certification components of it, you know, where to get that, how to organize that so it's easier for people. You've talked about things about how do I get other jobs for people so the season's done, how do I connect them? You know, Tyler, you and I have had some interesting conversations about you have all this equipment and making sure that it's in the right location for where the fires are, like, becomes really critical, right? And so you could have stuff in South Dakota, but if you have fire in the Cascades in Washington, if you can't get it there fast enough, somebody else is going get it. So there's a whole game to like where is my access to my stuff and then how quickly I can get it to it. And so again, that seems like an optimization problem. You can take data and you can basically understand where you're having fires traditionally and you can look at moisture levels and then you can figure out ways to like make sure that you can get your equipment to it as quickly as possible. And so to me, this platform starts to do some of that. You've talked about other consulting opportunities where people are asking for information. And if you have the data that where you could see all this information, they can make better decisions. And so to me, this is not just about a job board. This has a longevity of a lot of additional feature functionality that makes this a pretty rich product that solves a lot of problems in Winely and Fire.

Brennan:

Yeah. I heard that. It's perfect.

Todd Gagne:

Well, I'm not putting words in your mouth. I've heard it from you guys. That's why I'm trying to draw it out.

Tyler:

We're just we have a lot more ums and filler words than we articulate. That was, yeah, great.

Brennan:

One interesting thing Brennan said earlier about, like, making sure you're not building products that only you are gonna use, but what I find cool about this app and reassuring if I ever have doubts is, like, even if other people, even if we are the only ones who use it, it's been so beneficial. Even last year, when the app was pretty small, only a couple hundred firefighters on there, we were able to fulfill many contracts that we wouldn't have otherwise been able to. So at the end of the day, even if we're the only ones really benefiting from it, I think it's gonna result in enough increase in revenue for us that it's gonna be worth it. And we're not gonna be the only ones who use it, but I love it. You know, obviously we're biased, but it's We're really excited to put it to use this year, so then the next year we can show people all the business management software that we've been building. Just data. Data points

Tyler:

like you talked about, right? Everyone wants to see, you're selling me something, what are you truly providing? Sometimes when you're a startup and you just have that product fresh out of the wrapper, and you're trying to take it to someone, they're gonna have all these questions that you just can't answer at the time. You have to be honest with them that, hey. We're new. Like, I I want you to use it and provide that feedback or break the app, you know, platform and app. Like, those are good things.

Todd Gagne:

And so Amy, talk to me about your pricing model because, right, I think that kind of goes dovetailed. Right? So this is a laggard industry, you've said. You know, they're walking around with carbon copies. I think you've made it kind of almost free to start with. You've made it free for the people to be on the platform. You even gave some taste to some of the businesses that are trying to match to basically get some feedback back from them. So how do I make this kind of robust in a solution? And then you're kind of moved into a platform or a position where now I think there's enough value. There's enough people on the platform. I've got both sides of it. Everybody can see value of it. And so maybe just talk to me about that progression because that's not always easy, right? Building a platform where you've got like a you need you need people and employees and you need companies to match them with. And if you get heavy on one side or the other, there's not enough value for that network to really work. And then how do you monetize it? Well, can't do you can't monetize it day one. You have to wait to kind of build it up. And so maybe talk to me a little bit about the challenges and how you thought about pricing and stuff early on when there wasn't a lot of proof points.

Tyler:

Yeah. I think when we first, like you said, started on, we realized that it's a it's a teetering effect. You have to have the users to for the companies to see benefits in hiring, and then you have to have companies actively posting positions, messaging, events, things like that. So pricing, we for sure wanted a great base model for Wildland firefighters to always have a tool or resource that was better than a Facebook subgroup or you know? And then realizing that companies were the ones that were gonna immediately kinda benefit from our initial feature features. And so giving them that early on taste was has been beneficial. They've, you know, found multiple positions. They've been building up their teams and roster. The hardest part I think with pricing for us has been, you know, it's a seasonal it's a seasonal gig. Right? Some of these companies do do off season work. So, you you have to consider things like, well, if I'm doing a monthly payment that, you know, there's gonna be a good chunk of people that start and stop based on when fires go. So, you know, maybe offering a yearly more discounted type rate would be a better thing. You know?

Todd Gagne:

Yep. And are you testing these things and seeing kind of what sticks? Like, how do you experiment with that?

Tyler:

Yeah. For sure. You gotta talk to the you gotta come up with your own price, you know, do some industry research if you have competitors. For sure, that helps. Yeah. You know, things we would do is, okay, we have gear and tracking. There's companies that we've talked through through our interviews that use third party services for, like I said, three or four different softwares or programs, what do they charge? You know? How can you be competitive? You for sure have to be strong with, like, a product market fit early on, and having those beta testers is a great way to, you know, Hey, thanks for testing. Here's a discount. Then they're not only paying customers, but they're providing that feedback that you can then go to new customers.

Todd Gagne:

So what do think your brand's been, right? Like you started building this, you started going to shows, you started getting invited to other kind of shows to demonstrate what you're doing. It feels like the brand of Journeyman is starting to be associated with this problem in a positive way. And so this is a pretty niche industry, so I get it. But I think like you're all kind of talking. And so talk to me about going from, you know, like we're nobodies or we're known for kind of the ambulance stuff we're doing to building a personal brand around your business and getting this exposure. Because it's not easy. Right? And then but like you're doing it because you're authentic. You're doing it because you're solving a real world problem. You're doing it because you're listening and you're getting feedback.

Brennan:

Yeah. I think it's kinda unique as we've been on both sides of our customers. We got firefighters, which we've been, and then the business owners, which we are now. So Yep. We know how to benefit both sides, and we're not so far removed from being an end level, you know, grunt worker, if you will. So we understand what both people need and want.

Todd Gagne:

So it brings credibility because you understand the industry and you've been on both sides of it.

Tyler:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you go out and we talk to a lot of our current beta testers companies that we've worked with in EMS and other industries that have met us on the fire line and just the quality of our employees or they've met Tyler and and praise him so highly, that alone will buy five minutes with a potential new customer. Right? Especially when they're recommending. So having a good reputation, I think we've been fortunate that we've met a lot of our, I think, early, early beta testers, you know, that first fifteen to twenty people, we knew them pretty well from just the last few years of Fire, those business owners. So that was huge.

Todd Gagne:

So let's let's fast forward. If five years from now, what does Journeyman look like?

Tyler:

Oh, like Tyler said, we got the whole federal Viper dispatching system in a more automated efficient way.

Todd Gagne:

So Maybe explain what that is because, like, nobody's gonna know.

Tyler:

Yeah. Sorry. So the the government will do preseason agreements with companies like Minuteman EMS. So we essentially say, hey. We have this asset or resource for this amount a day, And that procures a list, basically cheapest to more expensive within that region. And so teams, they're on fires, have this long, strong out process of of requesting assets or items, then going to a dispatch center to then work down a call list, to then manual side, see if it's actually available or not. Right? Is the piece of gear still there? Are the people available and ready to go? All of these things can be set up in a in a much more efficient process so that orders are being filled more quickly and more accurately, and those resources are arriving to those fires a lot sooner. And kind of an example story of

Brennan:

that last year, when you accept a resource order from the government, you get this document, and lists all the people they called and that declined. And then you're at the bottom, like Minuteman EMS accepted. Last year, I remember getting one for an EMT. I counted thirty six phone calls. So some government employee was

Todd Gagne:

thirty

Brennan:

six times before we accepted the call. And then conversely, like, I think it was two years ago, I was out west with one of the ambulances ready to send it out somewhere towards the end of the season. Really wanted to get one more assignment. I went into the grocery store to get some lunch, and I forgot my phone. Terrible idea. I walked outside a missed call from the forest service. Oh, shoot. You know, I called them back. Hey. Sorry. You know, I'm available. What do got? I'm like, we

Todd Gagne:

just gave it away. It's the next Gave

Brennan:

it away. So that was essentially tens of thousands of dollars in revenue phone call that I because I didn't have my phone in my pocket. Like, there should be a way where you're alerted, hey, you're on deck or you're in the hole or some some way to make that more efficient. One for the government and then two for us. It's not efficient for them when they have to make thirty six phone calls to fill one That's not counting, like Brennan said earlier, the the dozers, the aircraft, the actual firefighters, just a lot of inefficiencies.

Todd Gagne:

That's pretty cool. And I think there's so much opportunity. And then, as we've talked about, like, the urgency when there's a fire is just, you know, huge, right? Like we got to get resources, people to minimize the impact and so it seems like a good fit for what you guys are doing. So kind of wrapping it up, how what if you were to give two to three pieces of advice for somebody who's thinking about starting a business that kind of was where you guys were when we first started and met, what you recommend to them? And maybe I'll start with you, Brennan. Give me one, two, whatever you want to do. I'm curious because a lot of what you're trying to do is say, you've been through a journey, You've learned a lot of things. How do you give this back to somebody else to say, I I wish I knew this when I started?

Tyler:

Yeah. Those are some good ones. I mean, for sure, the biggest one is is you have to take time for yourself. Balance is a is a big thing. So whether you do that in the mornings, whether you do that at nights, doesn't matter. You gotta take care of yourself or you can't take care of anything.

Todd Gagne:

Right.

Tyler:

The other thing, like we talked about earlier, is accept or be be okay with what you're not knowledgeable on and go and learn those things, whether it's YouTube, whether you find the right mentor, because that's just gonna give you a lot more confidence when you are talking to people, sales, marketing, new customers, whatever, or even your developer about the product. Just having that basic information is gonna make you more confident. It's gonna make you sound like you understand what's going on, things like that.

Todd Gagne:

Good. Tyler?

Brennan:

Yeah. If you're younger, especially, I would take the opportunity to go maybe do some things you wouldn't otherwise. Like, go do some crazy jobs in crazy places, and then you're gonna start to learn about industries. You can't, you know, I wouldn't have, we wouldn't have been able to do this if we didn't go out and be in the wildland firefighting industry. The domain expertise.

Todd Gagne:

You need the domain expertise.

Tyler:

Yeah. Yeah. Go do stuff.

Brennan:

Go take a crazy job in a crazy place that's maybe dangerous or whatever. You're gonna learn a lot. And then while you're out there doing that, have your business goggles on and start to try to spot issues in that industry. Then the one we always say is everything takes longer and is more expensive and requires more steps than you ever anticipated. Maybe that's just Brendan and I being kind of optimistic about things, but man, it's always more expensive and it's always takes longer. We're always like, how hard can that be? And then it turns out it's

Tyler:

pretty Yeah, throwing it on a T shirt.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah, exactly. That is good. Yeah. I mean, maybe both of you guys. I guess I always think of a thing too is I've had a lot of things that people would say are failures, external failures, but the things you learn from that, I think it's the reframing. And I think we have a society that's pretty afraid of failure. And so they want to do things that they only can be successful at. And if you don't put yourself in those positions to learn, even if the outcome isn't exactly what you want, but you took something from it that you applied to the next one, I do think that is a lot of entrepreneurship. And I think, you know, Brennan, it goes back to your thing about, you know, the no black boxes. You're gonna have to go learn some things. Do you have to be the expert in it? No. But do you have to have a working knowledge of understanding what it is? And sometimes that's hard. Are you going to screw some things up? Yes. But I think, like, it's important. And I think it is part of the entrepreneurial process, is you're going to fail, you're going to run some experiments, but you've got to learn from it. It is not a linear process.

Brennan:

A little bit better each day, you know, sometimes you want to get everything done tomorrow and it's just not the reality. Just one foot in front of the other, keep doing little things. Before you know it, you know, time time flies and you've made progress, so Having interest.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. And I guess I'd maybe close this out by, like, saying you guys have really helped us continue to make Wildfire better. So, you know, you guys started with us pretty early, And if you look about what the program and the solutions and all the tools and the people that we had day one versus where we are today, you know, we have the same philosophy, right? We're going to get better. We have to get better. And we have to listen to you as our customers. And you guys have been great partners all the way through this. And I know you've gotten some value out of our program, but I just want to publicly say we got a lot of value from you as you kind of went through this program and we're partners in it. So our program is better because of what you guys have done and that'll happen again, right? Three years from now, we'll be having some sales guy on and we'll say, Yep, you guys added a lot of value and made this program better for the next cohort that's coming through. So, hey, thanks for taking the time. Thanks for picking us as partners. We're super excited about the business you guys have had and we're super excited to see where it goes over the next couple of years. So thank you for taking the time.

Brennan:

Yeah, thank you. Appreciate it.