Todd Gagne:

Excited for this conversation today with Tom Connell. Tom is a, runs a marketing agency called North Street. They have some offices in kind of Providence, Rhode Island, as well as New York City. And he's been a business owner, for 14 years, and he's got about 12, employees and he's continued to grow. He talks a lot about, just his path in in that entrepreneurial journey.

Talks about, you know, segmentation and really finding a beachhead customer that you really can build your business around. He talks about the role of mentors, and talks a lot about, like, how you have to be well more well rounded, as a entrepreneur than just the skills that you come into it. He's a member and a mentor in an organization called entrepreneurial organization. There's a these are national chapters all around the United States. And he really feels passionately about this as part of, his ability to succeed is learning from others.

And so this is a great conversation. There's a lot of valuable insight, a lot of humility from Tom. And I really hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Alright. Well, welcome to startup stories from the tree house.

And today, is the first episode I've ever done that is not in the tree house. I'm actually in my parents' house, helping them move. And, Tom, I wanna welcome you to the podcast. Thank you very much for, taking the time.

Tom Conlon:

Yeah. Thanks, Todd. Good to see you.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. Likewise. Likewise. So maybe, just talk to me a little bit about maybe your origin story. Right?

So you and I have had a a couple of conversations offline. I think it's pretty interesting. I'm pretty excited about this conversation. But maybe just talk to me a little bit about your kind of entrepreneurial journey and kinda what you're doing today.

Tom Conlon:

Yeah. Sure. So I run a company called North Street. We're a branding and creative agency. I started 14 years ago.

Today, what we are is we're 12 people. We are we used to be New York City based. We're now based all over the country, and I'm sure we I mean, all over the world. I'm sure we can get into that later. But, ultimately, North Street's a branding and creative agency.

We specialize in financial services, health care, nonprofit, and professional services. So we're very, like, b to b focused.

Todd Gagne:

Okay.

Tom Conlon:

I star I started the company 14 years ago with a partner, actually. I did more digital. She did more sort of print and branding. And so we made a really good we just we our skills were very complimentary, and, we worked together really well, for about 3 years, and then that exploded. The company became mine after that.

I had no idea what to what to do. We I'm sure we can cover that later too. But in the in the last, say, 9 years or or, actually, it's been more than that, 11 years since she split. The I've developed the company into, you know, like I said, it's a 12 person agency. We are servicing I'd say, you know, we're mids we're mid market in terms of the types of clients that we, that we service.

But I think we've done a really good job at getting identifying what we're good at, who we're really good at working with, getting that message out there. And I and, hopefully, just kinda always in oh, always improving on what we do and how we do it.

Todd Gagne:

Well, that's pretty cool. Maybe talk to me a little bit about kind of that beachhead strategy. Right? You you you've picked a couple of kind of b to b verticals to go after, and it probably didn't start with all of those to start with. You probably, basically, maybe shotgunned a little bit and then got a little more specific.

But maybe you just talk about that whole idea of, like, defining who you are and then where you think you have some strengths.

Tom Conlon:

Yeah. So, you know, starting out starting out, and I say this jokingly, but I'm actually kinda serious, is that, like, when we started out, we would take money for anything, and we would do we would take money from anybody. Yeah. We would do anything for anybody as long as they're paying us. Right?

Because it's like, you don't really know any better. And, you know, you start I started my business as a designer, and I was like, okay. Cool. Cool. Like, I'm gonna just design stuff.

That works for a little bit while you're getting yourself up and running, especially if it's just you. But, ultimately, like, once you've once you realize that you need to get new business, and that in order to get new business, you have to market effectively. In order to market yourself effectively effectively, you really have to be able to, like, talk to specific audiences. You start to sort of realize that you can't be all things to all people. Right?

And if you're like me, you probably do a lot of you probably listen to a lot of business podcasts, read a lot of business books. And at least in the creative services industry, there is, you know, niche riches are in the niches. Right? It's like that that, like, the more you focus, the the the the more successful you're gonna be in. Why is that?

It's what I just said, which is that, like, you can't there's no way you can market to the to the yellow pages. Right? Because, like, how could you possibly come up with a compelling message that speaks to every single person on Earth? You can't. And so you start to realize that, like, oh, if I wanna get more financial services clients, then I really need to if I thought well, let me just say, if I wanna get more clients, I'm really good at doing financial services stuff.

I have a pretty good portfolio of it, and I know what their problems are that need to be solved. And so if I'm gonna create a marketing strategy or marketing messaging, now I have a a target client, and I have and I have the ability to create targeted messaging. In the absence of that, like I said, you're just you know, think about going into a room think about going into a bar, or like a cookout, and someone's like, oh, you know, what do you do? Oh, we're a design agency. Oh, really?

Like, you know, maybe I can introduce you to somebody. Who should I introduce you to? And if my answer is like, well, we'll literally do anything for anybody. Then, like, who's this person sitting there like, oh, okay. And but if you say, listen.

I my my agency does, branding and website design development for financial services clients, and we work really well with, either, you know, marketing people inside of those financial services organizations or or or principles. That person is either gonna have someone they can introduce you to or they're not. And, like, if they're not, great. Move on. If they do, excellent.

And that's just like one very, very that sort of cocktail party cookout example is a very, very small sort of example of why it is beneficial to really focus on, you know, on who you work with. And the reason and how we got there was just, you know, I've been in business for 14 years. You at the beginning, you start to do work for people, then you do a good job for somebody. They start sending you more work. They make introductions to other people in your network, and all of a sudden, one client that's in financial services is suddenly 10 clients in financial services.

And so that's how that happened. And similar thing kinda happened with, just professional services. And then I'd say later on at couple years, probably, like, 10 years in is when we really started to, like, have enough work in the in the health care and nonprofit sectors that we felt good about saying, okay, this is a specialty, and now we can go out and get some get new work based on the merits of the stuff that we've done.

Todd Gagne:

Okay. Well, maybe dig in a little bit more. So what I kinda hear you is is saying, like, you're creating the speech head, and a lot of this is customer discovery. Right? You need to understand your financial services problems, your personas, the challenges that they have.

You gotta be able to speak their language. Do you feel like all of those things help you sharpen kind of your pitch and and help it from a competitive standpoint on top of it? Right? Like, it's not only you can give good service to that client because you know their business well, but I think from a competitive standpoint, when they're looking at a bunch of proposals, yours kind of starts to stand out as something that really resonates with them. And it feels like they under you understand their business problem that they're trying to solve.

Tom Conlon:

Yeah. Absolutely. And, actually, someone said this to me a long time ago, and it stuck with me. And it was actually we we lost we lost a bid on a proposal to work with a hotel company. Right?

And this is, like, a long time ago when we were, again, we were working with hotel companies. Anybody? Yeah. And all and, ultimately, they chose to go with this, other company that specializes in websites for, like, hotels. Right?

Like so think about all the things that need to be built into a hotel website, and, like, let's just take a small thing like a, a booking widget. Right? My team had never built a booking widget. We didn't do hotel websites regularly. This other company already had that tool in their toolbox.

And what my and what and so what my client or the prospective client ultimately said to me was they have run into all of the problems that someone is gonna run into a 100 times already. And so, like, things that are gonna, like, stop you guys dead in your tracks or be a very big problem for you, Like, this other company has already figured out. And so and so that's that's the that's the power of, like, specialization right there. Right? And that's how

Todd Gagne:

that's the beachhead that you're

Tom Conlon:

kind of talking about, which is man, there's there's knowing, like, what the clients are like. You know? Man, there's there's knowing, like, what the clients are like. You know, sometimes it's like there's a committee, but then there's the sort of, like, CEO. And a lot of the times, the CEO can't be involved in a project until the very end and then comes in with big ideas at the very end.

It's like, we've already you know, we've dealt with that a 100 times. Okay? Compliance. You know, that's a big thing with law firms and financial services firms. It's like every word that goes on the website.

Okay. It has to go to legal compliance, and legal compliance comes back with, like, their red marker. And they don't get involved until the very end either. And so, like, we've dealt with those things a 100 times. We know we know what it's like to work with a financial services firm.

So that absolutely differentiates us in our proposals, not only because we're showing work in the financial services firm saying, like, hey. Look at our portfolio. We've done websites or branding for companies like yours a 100 times, but, also, we've run all the tracks before. Right? Like, we know the problems that are gonna that that that one could potentially encounter versus a general interest firm that also does restaurant websites and also does, you know, sneaker ecommerce websites.

Like, you know, they're gonna the first time, like, they get an email from compliance saying, like, hey. We need to redo x y z. Like, that's gonna

Todd Gagne:

be new

Tom Conlon:

to them. Yep. Yep. Right? Right.

Right. Right.

Todd Gagne:

Well, good. Well, maybe pivoting a little bit. You talked about in your intro a little bit of going from kind of being a centralized organization in New York City to being a decentralized organization. In some of our other conversations, you talked about this really kind of happened during the COVID period of time. Yeah.

So maybe just talk about the dynamics and and kind of the culture of your company and and that transition. Because, you know, I I think a lot of startups are looking at saying, I can get talent anywhere. That's great,

Tom Conlon:

from

Todd Gagne:

a remote standpoint, but it's not always easy to coordinate and, and really feel that kind of energy that, like, a startup would have. And so I'm kind of curious. I mean, you you basically had an organization that was effective and working, and then, basically, you had to break it up during that time. And now you have kind of 2 offices and a bunch of people disparate. So maybe just talk a little bit about that process and and kind of what it mean you know, was there some growing up that it made you do?

Was there more process oriented? What were some of the ramifications of those changes?

Tom Conlon:

Yeah. Sure. Yeah. So the switch to remote or, distributed was really, really has been really, really positive for us. And it's funny because it's something I resisted for a long time.

And, you know, so so up until 2020, we had an office in New York City, in the South Street Seaport District. All of us, every single person who worked for the company, which I think was, like, 8 at the time, everyone worked 9 10 to 6 in the New York City office. We were all in person. That's just how the company ran. We would even I mean, honestly, most pitches and, like, client meetings were also done in person.

You know, we would and if they weren't done in person, it's funny. It wasn't even done over Zoom. It was done over a conference call, which is horrible, and I hope to never have to return to those.

Todd Gagne:

To do that again. Yeah.

Tom Conlon:

Yeah. Oh my god. So what was funny, Todd, was, like, I had this one developer who was this is right before the COVID. He was a really great employee, and he he he asked me he would ask me over and over again. He's like, can we have, like, flexible work from home policy?

Can I have, like, work from home Fridays? And I was like, Dave, listen. I a 100% trust you, and I trust that you would be completely diligent and responsible with your working from home, you know, privileges. But if I give you something, I need to give it to the entire company. If I give something to the entire company, it's impossible to take something back.

Right? So, like, like, I just have to think about it. I just need time to think about how we would roll this out, like, how it would apply to all employees. Would we have some days where some people are in the office and others aren't? Well, March 13, 2020, the Band Aid gets ripped off.

Right? And, like, we're in New York City. For you today. Yeah. Exactly.

My team literally like, the night before, my team's like, they're talking about closing the bridges and tunnels. Like, I don't think we should go to the office tomorrow, and I'm like, I think you're right. So, like, mark the Friday 13th was our 1st day remote, and it was like, woah. Okay. This is us now.

Right? And it and it took a little, you know, it took a little figuring out. But for the most part, it was sort of like, let's just try something and see if it works. And if it doesn't work, we'll try something else. But, ultimately, where we've settled now, you know, x number of years later, we're now a team of 12.

We're probably gonna 14 in the next couple weeks. We do have an office in Providence because that's where I'm located, and I have an assistant here. We have a we have a New York we have a New York City office, but no one's actually in there. We just happen to have a lease that I resigned at the beginning of 2020. But but what has happened is, almost immediately after like, a few months into COVID, we were like, well, no one knows how long this is gonna last.

Right? And, like, we need to, like, get through this crazy time. So we hired a designer that we had worked with forever. She had worked with us back in, like, the early days. She had lived in she was living in California at the time, which was just, like, a nonstarter when we were all in person.

But suddenly, it's like, woah. Anything's possible. Right?

Todd Gagne:

Right.

Tom Conlon:

So she was really, like, the first domino. We hired this first with this designer we'd worked with. She was in LA. We started working with her, and it worked perfectly. And, like, right after that, we were like, okay.

Like, now when again, not knowing how long this is gonna last and still thinking somewhere that, like, oh, we're all just, like, return to office at some point. We just started hiring people, and what that allowed us to do was a couple things. Yes. We can find talent anywhere. So for me, hiring, like, really senior, creatives and engineers on the development side is is is really hard to do in New York City.

I mean, you've just it's the you've just got it's the most expensive place in the country to live, and and and those are the most expensive people to hire. So immediately, like, the options for us in terms of talent was just it was it exploded exponentially, which was really exciting. And then what also happened was we rebuilt our dev team almost completely with offshore talent. So Okay. We've got a dev team that is mostly in Latin America.

We've got one person who's actually in Madagascar, in Africa. But, otherwise, like, the whole the whole dev team is now offshore. They are, I mean, they are fully integrated into North Street. There are employees and, you know, they're they're full time and everything. But that's been really that's been really interesting and and exciting and has allowed us because just because of the, I guess, the currency arbitrage we can call it.

Mhmm. I'm able to actually get more senior people and more of them in my dev team, which just wasn't a possibility for us before. So it's been extremely advantageous. You know, we do we do a lot of stuff. Like, we do morning check ins, morning checkouts.

We try to do a lot of culture stuff, and I'd say that culture piece is the biggest kind of, like, the biggest change or the biggest thing that I think I need to monitor. And I think all business owners start, you know, the startups that are listening to this. Like, you have to be extremely intentional about culture when you are remote. Because when you're in person, it's just easy. It's like, oh, yeah.

There's they call it water cooler talk because you're literally, like, standing next to a water cooler talking. Like, it's very unstructured. Right? It's like, hey. What are you doing?

Or like, hey. I can over I can look over your shoulder and see what you're working on and ask you a question about it, etcetera. All of that stuff that just comes so naturally and so easily in person, while it might seem like that's nice to have, actually, that stuff is critical and crucial to, like, team culture, but also, like, the development of, like, employees, like, you know, the the the especially younger ones. So I just I'll just say that, like, we are very intentional about culture, and it's a constant work in progress. You know?

Like, just making sure that we're all seeing each other's faces at least once a day, hopefully twice, and then getting together once maybe every week or maybe once every other week just for, like, a purely social thing. And, you know, it's just it's just to, like it's usually on a Friday, and it's just one of those, hey, let's go around the room. Tell me something interesting you worked on this week, and something interesting you're you're gonna work on this weekend. And something just as simple as that, you know, when you're going around the room, the virtual room at the end of the week and you, you know, people are talking and smiling, it it's like it just it's like, alright. You know, like, this is the stuff.

Right? Yeah. This is the stuff. We're doing it. And so, all in all, the the change to remote or virtual was was hugely advantageous.

And, again, just the culture piece is is what you have to really be intentional and careful about is my advice.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. Before we were talking a little bit about, I have a daughter who's just already graduated from college, and, you know, she's really kind of excited about doing a remote job. And we were having this conversation about just maybe the dangers of of people that are early in their career taking remote jobs and just not having like, basically, that whole business culture of, how do I model? How do I be successful in this environment? What do I need to learn?

What's valued? If you don't have any of that baseline to start with, it is super hard, I think, through Zoom and even some of the cultural things you're talking about, you know, even a couple touch points a week to maybe build that. And and maybe what I'm what I've been kind of maybe articulating is, is, is the career path going to be as steep for people that are super excited and aggressive about their career, versus, I've got a job. Right? If I want a job, maybe this is totally fine.

But if you want to progress through an organization, if you want to rise in the ranks, if you want more responsibility, does, maybe taking a remote job early in your career become a limiting factor in that? And so I'm curious of what you think on that and if you have any strong opinions. It sounds like you're hiring more senior people, but I wonder if it's partly because of that factoring as well.

Tom Conlon:

Yeah. I so there's a lot there's a lot there, in that question, so I'll answer it piece by piece. I think I think, you know, if you're just taking a job for job, then fine. Remote remote is totally fine. It's in fact, it's it's amazing.

It's awesome. Right? Exactly. Yeah. It's totally amazing.

If you're looking if you're genuinely like, if you're like, this is my career and, like, I love this company or type of company, and, like, this is what I wanna do, and I wanna, like, really do my best here and then, like, leverage that, maybe maybe get a promotion or 2 here and then move on to the next company or the next thing. Remote is difficult, because it really just takes honestly, it it takes an investment from you and your manager to just realize that, like, all of that stuff I was talking about before, the stuff that kind of happens in the moment. Yeah. It's important for culture, but it's also important for career development. I mean, I start I think about my first job out of college.

I shared a cubicle essentially with my manager. Right? She was, like, right next to me. And so even though, like, I was pulled into every meeting, sometimes just for observation, I mean, I observed the way she dressed. I observed the way she talked to other people.

I observed the way she talked to people that reported to her versus the people she reported to. I I observed what it was like to take a lunch break. Right? And, like, during during the week or run personal errands during the week. Right?

I learned what, like, a professional, I don't know, you know, like, what a review what a review was and, like, what that meant. And there's just so much that that that that happens in the in just that everyday kind of, again, through osmosis piece that is that is is lost during remote. And so it's not lost like it's it's dead. It's just that it's it's since it's not there, you have to come up with other ways to do that. And so I just think making sure that, you know, as a young person, it's like, hey.

It's just getting FaceTime with your manager, on a regular basis just to just just to make sure that, like, you have, you have your marching orders, you have your KPIs. Like, what are you being measured against? Like, what's a what's what's a measure of success for this role? Making sure you understand that. Making sure that there's, like, a I I think the thing with remote is that you can't just tap somebody on the shoulder and say like, hey.

I have a question. Right? And so it's like knowing what, you know, when to ask questions, when to Google something, but also when not to spend 2 hours googling something when you could have just asked somebody what questions. So, like, you know, it it it it just take it takes a it takes a lot of it takes a lot of work. Now I will say that I see tremendous value in hiring young people who you know, first of all, younger people who want a remote job and they just want a job, I have no problem I have no problem with that type of person.

There is a place for all types of people in in all organizations. And sometimes you just need someone who's extremely productive in the hours that you have for them, and they're very good at, like, sitting down at a task and doing it. And you don't need them, and they don't need you to be part of some big fabric of culture and and everything else. But but we do like to hire younger people at NeuroStreet, and we are we're we're figuring that out like everybody else. You know, we've identified that, like, you can't just you know, yes.

You can hire an older person, a a more experienced person. Basically, older. You you could bring in a more experienced person. Like, you know, the advantages, you can basically wind them up and set them off in a direction and, like, they're gonna do what

Todd Gagne:

they've been What you asked them to do?

Tom Conlon:

To do their yeah. But they're expensive and also, like, they might also I find that people who are more senior are also very used to having other people do things for them, and that's not a bad thing. Right? Like, if you're more senior, you might be have been more of a manager, so you're very good at, like, understanding, like, what you're really good at and where your focus should be, and, like, when you should, like, bring in other people. Well, you know, unfortunately, we can't always bring in other people for things.

And so and so for younger people, we we are like, North Street is very conscious about making sure that there is there is a place for us to hire younger people at the very beginning of their career. We sort of create for each role, we create kind of, like, levels, you know, like level 1, level 2, level 3, and each level has, a commiserate amount, you know, level of responsibilities and also salary. Right? And so it's very clear, like, okay. In order to get to this next phase of of my career, at North Street at least, I need to demonstrate that I can do these things.

And if I do, then I'm gonna be making this amount of money. It's, honestly, Todd, it's a work in progress. I mean, it's it's working for us so far, but, you know, we we we're we're we're hiring pea we're hiring a lot of people sometimes, and, like, within 3 months, we're like, hey, look. This is an experiment that Yeah. Didn't didn't work for for us.

And but other times, you just find you find, like, this diamond in the rough. Right? This kid who's just looking for, like, their shot. Right? And it's like, you you get them in, you get them in.

At the very beginning of their career, you can you can mold them in terms of, like, processes and, like, expectations and everything. And the hope for us is they stay at North Street as long as it's mutually beneficial for both of us, and at some point, they're gonna hit a ceiling. Right? And hopefully, they leave better than when they arrived, you know, more prepared for the career road that's ahead of them, and they and we also benefited from them being at our company. Right?

They did really great work, for what we paid them for the time that they were here, and they they advanced us in whatever, you know, whatever field they were they were working in. And, you know, and then they've given us information about the next the next time we hire for that role that they were in. Okay. Well, now we know, like, what to look for, what to look for, etcetera.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. Maybe one last question on this topic. I I think, it's been interesting to look at young you know, we we we work with a lot of founders that are generally younger. Conflict is always one that's kind of interesting. I'm kinda curious if, you know, just like how to deal with conflict.

And I I think there's a difference between remote and doing it in person. And so, again, go back to your cubicle where you sit with your manager. You see how hard conversations are actually worked through, right, in a constructive way, where you're not just beating on the person and and feeling, you know, frustrated or, you know, feeling belittled. There's a constructive criticism to it. I'm curious.

You know, I just look at my own kids and stuff, and I think about, you know, they're kind of mobile first. They Mhmm. They they they really get kind of, concerned, when they have to write something formal even in Slack or email. They're much easier to write something in text. And then I think there's a lot of conflict avoidance sometimes if they can avoid it.

And I think in business, especially in remote, that can be definitely an issue, because they get frustrated. They don't articulate it well. And I think as managers or as people that are working in those environments, you almost have to dig into that and constantly assume that there could be some problems and how to create safe spaces to have that when maybe they don't have all the skills, at least early on in their career, to do it?

Tom Conlon:

Yeah. Yeah. So we have an we have a we have a young person who just started, this week. He's in his twenties, and he's working here with me actually in person, which is helpful, but I think that this this this goes remote too. I think one thing, as the manager or the boss or the person who hired this person, I think it's unfair to assume that this person, like, right out of school, like, young entry level, maybe they have one job under their belt.

It's it's unfair to assume that they know anything. Right? Yeah. Like, they don't That's true. They don't they don't they don't know just the sort of things.

You know, I've been in the workforce for 20 something years now. There are just things that I take for granted or things that I Yep. Have known for 2 decades that I don't even think about. I don't even know I know them because I know them so well. Right?

But you can't assume someone who's 20 something, who's just joined the workforce, knows anything. Right? And so I think as the manager, it's your respond at least the way I'm handling it is I'm like, look. There are no dumb questions. Right?

Yep. I don't I don't pretend to assume that you know how anything works. I mean, of course, for whatever I hired you for, you should be able to be, like, competent producing producing something that approximates the payment you're hired to to to do. But other than that, like, I mean, I it's just like ordering yeah. It's just little things.

Like, oh, I I I he he was asking the other day about, like, ordering supplies, and I'm like, oh, you don't need, like there's no, like, formal process for that. You know, like, don't don't yeah. But another company, yeah, there is gonna be. You know? There's gonna

Todd Gagne:

be an

Tom Conlon:

acquisition form. Of course. Right? And so and and so when I want I think that's the first piece. Like, as the manager, it's just like, look.

You gotta just assume that this person, like, they they they don't make assumptions that they are that more experienced person that you can wind up and just send off because they're the opposite of that. They're the opposite of that. Right? I think the second thing, again, as I like to say this, it's like there are no stupid questions. Right?

It's like it's like, look, you know, please ask me something before you spend 2 and a half hours or your entire day on Google trying to find the answer to something. Like, I I can tell you that in one second. And honestly, you're not bothering me. Now if 6 months from now, you are tapping me on the shoulder for every single little question, I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna start to wonder if you're the right person for this organization. But in the first three months, at least, it's like, hey, like, you can ask me anything, you know, at any point during the day.

So that's that. I think another thing in terms of, like, conflict, avoidance, and or just that sort of, like, I know what you're saying about, like, look, I like to keep things low stakes, meaning, like, I I think, like, let's not make a big if you have to tell somebody something, let's not make a big deal out of it. Right? Like, I think that if, you know, if this new guy who started does something incorrectly or does something not to my liking, it's so much easier for me in the moment just to be like, oh, hey. By the way, in the future, like, I prefer x y z.

Or or, like, hey. You know, just like going forward, this client hates x y z, and, like, so from now on, we're gonna do it this way. Just saying things, like, in the moment, right, is very disarming and deflating because it's not a big deal. Right? Or or maybe it is a big deal, but, like, I don't want I don't want this employee to to make it to make to have them feel like it's the end of the world or it's a big deal or they're in trouble or they did something wrong.

So so that's that's another thing. Like, just keeping feedback, try to keep it low stakes because, yeah, honestly, it's not like, I don't think I need to pull you into a private Zoom room with a with, you know, a representative of the HR team as a witness to to tell you something that is just normal in the in the course of, like, doing business, and it's gonna help you learn. So there's that. And then I would just say, and I I think I said this earlier, like, FaceTime and regular check ins with your manager and they don't need to be formal, it's just so that you are establishing a rapport and little things don't have to become bigger things. And and what I mean by that is, like, once you have to set a meeting for something, it just becomes a bigger deal.

Right? It's like, oh, hey. Like, let's let's meet for 30 minutes later this afternoon on Slack I mean, on Zoom. And then that person sitting there like, oh my god. What's this meeting about?

Tell me.

Todd Gagne:

Knock them in the bags.

Tom Conlon:

What am I doing? Yeah. Right? So so, yeah, it's a two way street. Right?

A lot of the responsibility is actually on the manager, I think. I agree. But but there but there is there is you know, there are things I think the employee can do just to just to stay in the manager's space.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. But I think maybe to to pull some stuff out of what you're saying is, if you're creating a culture of questions and it's okay and it's a safe space and it's not a big deal, that goes 2 2 ways. Right? Like, you're doing it, and you're modeling it. And then when they have problems or they have questions, they feel comfortable doing it too.

So I I do think you're right, but I think what you're really doing is creating an environment where it's safe to ask those questions and people are comfortable going, like, okay. I'm I'm I'm kind of going towards the north arrow. I'm trying to do the right thing, but, you know, I'm not always getting it right. And so and that's okay.

Tom Conlon:

Yeah. And, ultimately, Todd, it's like, we've all we've all got the same end game in mind. Right? So for me, it's like it's like, Ben, we wanna create the best possible work we possibly can so that our clients are extremely happy with us. And in order to do that, I need you in your position to be doing what you were hired for and be doing it well, and also, like, not being burnt out and, like, I don't know.

Just and and also not distracted by, like, drama. Right? So, like yeah. Like, it it's like it's like I it's important. It's it's it's important to the end goal.

Like, we're all just we're all rolling in the same direction. And so, like, for me to, like, take 2 minutes out of my day to answer some question is not bothering me. It's not putting me out because, ultimately, like, I need I need to you to get up to speed and and and and and so that I so that someday, you are that. And it might not be here, but someday, you are that senior person that could just be wound up and sent off

Todd Gagne:

in a direction.

Tom Conlon:

You're not there yet? Nope. Yeah. You're not there yet. It's my job to have

Todd Gagne:

a conversation. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe pivot a little bit. You know, you've talked a little bit about, people coming and asking you questions.

So, maybe talk a little bit about, the entrepreneurs organization and and, basically, where people like you, can actually go and and and, basically, get some help. Right? I think we all come to kind of the business table where we basically have a set of skills and we have some strengths, and then we have some areas that are just dark holes that you're like, hey. I just don't do that. Like, I don't understand technical pieces of it.

And And so, maybe talk a little bit about the organization, your role, and then basically what the chart really is.

Tom Conlon:

Yeah. Sure. So I I think the the sort of, like, the starting point for this conversation is that, like, look. You know, I don't I don't know how to run a business. Right?

Like, I I was I didn't go to business school. I didn't write a business plan. I know how to design and build websites. I don't know how to, like, look at a p and l or, like, you know, how to, like I didn't know that I should have a line of credit, Todd, until, like, right before COVID. Right?

Thank god. Yeah. No kidding. But there's just there's just, like, things you don't know. Right?

And so I god, I remember, like, in 2016, I was having dinner with a friend of mine who runs an agency like mine. He's a little more dev focused. And I was just telling him, I'm like, Jeff, like, man, I don't know what to do. Like, my my my revenue is kind of flat. My profits probably actually going down.

My employees are asking for more money. My rent's getting more expensive. I'm like, I don't I see these at some point, we're gonna hit, you know, we're gonna hit an inflection point, and it's not gonna be good. Right? And and he introduced me to the Entrepreneurs Organization.

So Entrepreneur's Organization or EO is a it's a global it's a global organization, but I'm in but then there's, like, regional, chapters. So I'm in the New York chapter. I've been in since 2017. And, essentially, what it is is it's it's it's a I'd say it's a peer to peer It's a peer to peer like learning and support group, but I think that's the best way to put it. So what that means is it's it's all of the member.

It's a nonprofit. It's run by members. All of the members are business owners who run a business that's, doing at least $1,000,000 in revenue or or more. And then once you've joined, there's a lot of different elements. There's, like, sort of these, like, micro support groups inside called forums.

It's like there'd be a group of, like, 5 other business owners that you meet with, like, once a month for, oh, you know, half a day. There's there's events. Like, there's really great learning events, and then there's really great social events. And and and the overarching theme is just that, like, hey. Look.

We're all running businesses, and if we can all help each other by helping us, you know, like, solve problems that we've already solved, or, you know, putting you in touch with some vendor that I've used successfully in for for years, like, you know, let's do it. And so I just like, the the the what I love about this organization, and and this was the very first event I went to. I remember I went to an event. It was it was a learning day. It was it was it was people focused.

I remember 2 things. 1, I sat down in the audience, and I remember the the the speaker saying, if given a chance today, would you rehire every single person on your staff? And I had never had the balls to ask myself that question. I'd never even asked myself that question. Right?

And when this person asked that question, it, like, hit me to the core. I was like, woah. Like, woah. Like, there's definitely people I wouldn't rehire and, like, I'm like and I'm just start kinda looking around, and I'm like, woah. Like, all the people in this room are, like, going through or have gone through, like, the same things that I've gone through.

And I'm like, I can't believe, like so what I and then and then I had lunch, and I sat down at lunch with a guy who ran a business cleaning chimneys in New York. And I'm like, I I don't know if this group's for me. Right? Like, I'm a I'm a designer and I'm a developer. I run a creative agency, and I'm sitting here talking to this guy who cleans chimneys.

Within 10 minutes talking to this guy, I realized, like, woah. Okay. It doesn't matter that he cleans chimneys. This guy has employees. He's got payroll.

He's got clients. He's got all the issues I like. In other words, running a business

Todd Gagne:

all sorts of stuff. Yeah.

Tom Conlon:

Running a business is running a business right at the end of the day. And I'm like, wow. I can't believe how much in common I have with this guy. So I think that's really I I think those two examples really speak to what the organization is about, which is that, like, look, you know, running a business is very difficult. And even if you did go to business school, they're not teaching you the the that that sort of, like, day to day stuff that, like, that can make you or break you.

And so I'm part of this organization that really just gives me access. It gives me a community that gives me access to, you know, 200 in the New York area, other business owners who I can I can ask a question to? I can be like, hey, can someone introduce me to x Bank? I wanna inquire about a a line of credit. Has anyone had any good sore has anybody had any I I actually mentioned before about outsourcing or, you know, outsourcing my dev team to, Latin America.

I got all of those guys through connections in EO. I just asked people on a message board. I'm like, hey. Is anybody, you know, outsourcing their dev or technical staff to Latin America? And I got, like, 5 different people to speak to about that.

So, that's the organization. My role, I'm I've I'm very active. I'm on the board. So, for 2 years, I ran what's called the accelerator program. That is for smaller businesses between, 250 k and a 1,000,000 in revenue.

The idea is to, like, get them up to the million mark and get them into EO. And I've also been, I've been a mentor, for multiple years to smaller businesses. And, this year, I'm the communications chair. So just keep it maintaining a maintaining a role on the board and doing, like, communications, which is kind of like what I do for a day job anyway.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. So maybe talk to me a little bit about the accelerator, and just getting people from 250 to 1,000,000. So, like, what do you think some of the kind of core areas that the program or you've seen just historically are areas? Because I think all of our entrepreneurs, we deal with a lot of high growth ones. And so I think getting to a 100,000 or 200,000 and getting those early adopter clients is one thing, But scaling that to a1000000 or to 5000000, like, there's just these inflection points that are super hard.

Yep. And so I'm curious about, like, what do you teach? What what are some of the fundamentals that you kind of talk through? Because I do think that would be super relevant.

Tom Conlon:

Yeah. Sure. So I think the big one, at least for me, was finance. Right? So just just understanding I mean, my my my accountant would come in and show me the p and l at the end of every month.

Right? And it was actually probably, like, a month later. Right? Yeah. That's why you got the

Todd Gagne:

the other one. Indicator for

Tom Conlon:

you. Yeah. And, like, it couldn't be any more of a lagging indicator. Right? It's like, oh, this was what we had in the bank a month ago.

That means

Todd Gagne:

That doesn't

Tom Conlon:

work. I'd like I think yeah. At the time, I didn't know what to do with it anyway. I mean, now today, I I at least I know it's not helpful. Right?

So the financial piece, just basically being able to, like, understand the engine of your business. Like, okay. How much money should you be? You know, if you if if if this is the revenue you wanna target, what's the profit you should target in order to and what's healthy profit, right, versus, like, breakeven, versus too much profit. And too much profit is just, I think, an indicator that maybe your team's working too hard and you need to kind of invest in more people or something.

But, you know, what how do you look at utilization? You know, like, how are you, how do you forecast? Right? All of these things that, like, I think I think peep especially those smaller businesses on the the sub 1,000,000 mark, definitely below 500 k. You know, they're looking at their bank balances probably, and they and, like, that's the measure that's the measure of financial health.

And, like, there's nothing wrong with that at that level because that's all you know. But the fact is, like, looking at your bank accounts and having a general feeling of, like, the projects you might win or the checks that might come in, that's not that that that you you do not have a good picture of the financial health and well-being of your company, and so that is a big pillar of EO. It's just like learning all of that stuff and not becoming like you know, you don't have to go to accounting school. You don't have to be able to, like, manipulate a spreadsheet with all of these macros and functions. You just have to be able to read and understand the numbers that are crucial for your business.

So for me, that's that's Revenue. That's profit. And that is, that's utilization or what we call it, the labor efficiency ratio. So that's a big one. I think another one is delegation.

Right? Like, a big a big a a funny thing to see in the accelerator is because I it's funny because I was there. Being it like, part of the the Accelerator has 4 full learning days per year. So one day per quarter, you have to show up to an in person event for the entire day. And so you see these people at the beginning of their journey into the program, and they're like, what?

I have to, like, be offline or at least, like, not in front of my computer constantly for, like, 7 and a half hours straight. Like, no. I can't do that. My business will fall apart. And it's like, well, okay.

Well, that's why you're here. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Because you you should what?

Yeah. Like, you should be able to take a day off from your business, have it run, or at least not fall apart so that you can, you know, invest in improving the business. And so so, like, let's get you there. Let's get you to the spot where you can show up to these learning days and, like, not be freaking out. And so the the big thing there is delegation.

Right? It's like, you can't do everything in your business. You should only do the things that you are really, really good and gifted at. Think about your hourly rate. Right?

Like, think about what your hourly rate would be. Like, let's just say it's $200 an hour, and it may be 100, maybe 300. But, like, good. If your if your hourly rate is $200 an hour, you shouldn't you shouldn't be doing something like the basic minutiae maintenance tasks, like, I'm like sending clients invoice invoices, honestly. Yep.

Like, that that is not that is not something that I should be doing. It's just not my my time is finite, and I should be working on other things. And So you're

Todd Gagne:

getting things.

Tom Conlon:

Getting busy. Yep. Getting business owners to wrap their heads around that. Right? Just to just to understand that, like, you have to delegate or you're never gonna scale beyond, where you are now.

Right? And then I think people is people is a is a another big piece that that that first event I went to was this full day learning event I'm talking about. It was people day. And just understanding, like, you know, what what first of all, like, what does your what roles do you need in your company? Right?

What are what are your company's values at least? Like, even if they're not outwardly expressed, you should have a good idea of, like, what it takes to, like, work here to be a good employee here. And so, honestly, like, looking understanding the roles you need to hire and how to hire them, and then back to the financial piece, how to budget for them. Mhmm. This is this is all stuff that, like, you know, when you're starting your business, you have no clue about this stuff.

And so, you know, EO really serves, the accelerator specifically, really serves to get people from that, like, I'm tearing my hair out, and I'm doing everything myself, and I can't take more than 4 hours away from my computer without the world collapsing to, you know, to to to just having more control over their business and over their over their day to day.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. Well, that sounds good. It sounds like an amazing organization that fills a really critical role. I think everything you're talking about, you said it before, doesn't matter if you're a chimney sweep, you're an agency, or high high like, gross start up, you have all these same problems. So 100%.

Yeah. Maybe this pivots me to a little bit about, you know, traction and just execution. Right? I think it's one thing to, like, build a business plan and build up these things and say, I'm gonna hire these people, and we're gonna grow and all these things. But without kind of, an execution plan, there isn't and and, really, holding everybody to it, that seems pretty difficult.

Right? And so before, you and I talked about Gina Wickman. We talked about traction. We talked about EOS. And it sounds like you've gone through kind of that journey a little bit from, and maybe it's partly on your entrepreneurial organization, where it's, like, giving you some ideas of saying, you can't do it all, a, and then you have to figure out what you do really well, and then, b, how do you surround yourself with people that can help execute and get you to these goals?

And so maybe talk to Lomi a little bit about that because without that kind of fundamental execution, you know, platform, you don't grow. Right? You can't get to Yeah. 2,000,000, $3,000,000.

Tom Conlon:

Yep. Yep. Okay. Yeah. So we run EOS, the entrepreneurial operating system, as written about in the book Traction by Gina Wickman.

And so what is it? It's it's really it's a system. It's just it's a system of, like, best practices for running a business. There are there are a couple of different they call them operating systems. There's a couple of different systems for running your business.

I am I'm a fan of Traction, or EOS as as it's it's called EOS. It's in the book traction. I'm a fan of it. But I just think as long as there's even traction says, like, just it doesn't have to be our system, but just run a system. Right?

And run a single system. And so what is it? What do I mean by system? It's like I said before, it's just it's a collection of processes and best practices that are time tested, and they are tested across every single, like, vertical and industry on the planet. And it's really just it's it's it's basics, but it's amazing how just understanding and implementing the basics, like, how far that will get you.

And so, you know, this the the the system, it's pretty wide ranging, but the things that we got out of it are meeting structure meeting structure and meeting, meeting pace and frequency. That's a big thing. Right? I think a lot of, a lot of people waste a lot of time in meetings, simply because there's just no agenda, and the meeting ends without, like, next steps. I mean, that seems so obvious, but, like, how many meetings have you been on where there's just Too many.

You're going Too many. Yeah. You're going you're you're just going around the room. People are just giving their updates. And then at the end of the meeting, it's like, okay.

So let's meet next Friday. And you then you meet next Friday, and it's like nothing happens between this week. Right? Right. So there's, like, the just meeting structure, meeting meeting cadence.

There's the people piece that EOS, is very helpful with. They have something they call the accountability chart, and this goes back to what I was saying before about knowing what roles should be at your company. The accountability chart is kind of think about it like an org chart, but it's not focused on people. It's focused on roles, which means that, like, look, as a startup, you're gonna you might have 3 people at the company, but the fact is you probably have ten roles. Right?

So, like, you've got the CEO, you've got the COO, you've got the finance person, you've got the marketing and advertising person, you've got the HR person. Like, traction, EOS does a very good job of saying, okay. Let's map all this out, and let's map out like, even if Tom, me as the head of North Street, Yes. I'm the head of North Street, but I'm also down here as the head of HR, and I'm also somewhere in the finance department as, like, one of the, you know, one of the people that, like, is on the finance team. But what this does is it gives you an idea of, you know, thinking past the people you have and the size you're at now to understand.

Okay. Someday, I'm gonna have individual people in all of these roles. Right? And then sometimes these little these little roles are gonna actually probably expand into their own little departments. But even though I'm only 4 people today, I need to start thinking like a bigger company.

I need to, like, I need to I need to plan on the people I am one day gonna need. So the people part's a big piece of it. And then I'd say, what our biggest takeaway from from EOS and traction, Todd, is really the visionary integrator relationship, which is which is just one of the core pillars of of EOS and traction. And and all of this what what that is thing is that the the most well run organizations in business have 2 people at the at the very top. 1 is, like, the the the creative visionary kind of like right brained person, and the other is the data driven, results driven, process oriented, left brain person.

And that person's called the integrator. And the idea is that the visionary is the person they probably started the business. They are the ones that have the big relationships and the big visions and the big dreams, but it's the integrator's job to make sure that this stuff, at least the good ideas, can get done. It's the integrator's job to do it. Right?

To actually make it happen. Make sure that you have the people, processes, and profit in place to to to do the things that the that the the vision to to move the company in the direction that the visionary is moving in. And so EOS, just to be clear, EOS, the entrepreneurial operating system, is a totally different animal from EO, which is the Entrepreneur's Organization. They they are very closely related only because the founder of EOS was in EO, and EO uses a lot of EOS tools, but they are they are totally different things.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. Okay. Well, it's good. It sounds like it served your organization pretty well as a starting point. I think one of the things that I would say is I've gone through this a couple times with some startups, vernacular.

We all talk the same language. That's huge in this. Right? And so it's not a misconstrued, like, what are we talking about? Like, it is concrete.

These are the words we use, these are the vocabulary we use, and this is how we talk about it. And when everybody gets on the same page, there is clarity in that. And then I think there's, you know, then there's roles and responsibilities, and there's metrics and KPIs, and and there's all sorts of things that you can drive from that. And I do think that's a pretty key element of of making that work.

Tom Conlon:

Yeah. Do you know the KPI piece, thank you for reminding me of that, is big. Right? That's a big part of EOS, and it's a big part of any of these systems. And all that, you know, EOS calls it the scorecard.

And the best way the best way to think about this, and I said this to someone the other day, and this was something I heard myself at a learning day. But, like, your scorecard could be you should like, imagine you're on a desert island and or you're a yeah. You're on a you're stranded on an island and a bottle washes up with a message inside it. You should be able to pull open that little piece of paper and unroll it, and it should have no more than, like, 5 metrics on it. Right?

And, like, those 5 metrics should be able to tell you how well your business is doing this week, like, right now. Right? And and that's why island?

Todd Gagne:

Knock it off the island. That that would be way more important.

Tom Conlon:

You might you might have to. But the the idea of being alright. Well, let's pretend you're on vacation. You're not strong. But the the the idea is what we were saying before about, like, looking at p and l that's already a month out of date Yeah.

Or looking at your the the the money in your bank account. That's not an indicator of, like, how well your business is doing at all. Right? And so Right. Figuring out what those numbers are is is a big part of the the EOS traction system.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. Well, that's good. Well, hey. We're gonna wrap it up here. I got one more question for you.

So if you had to go back to, Tom of 14 years ago where you started this business, what would be, like, three pieces of advice you'd give that individual that's starting now? Right? You're probably doing this a little bit in in your entrepreneurial organization. Right? You're mentoring people that are coming back up.

But I'm kind of curious about, like, when you look at all the the steps you've done, there's probably some good nuggets here that are good takeaways that you'd love to go back and tell the early Tom and saying, you you're you're you're going to make some mistakes, but I'm gonna help you not stub your toe nearly as much. Yep. Yep.

Tom Conlon:

I think the big one, the big one is and we've we've talked about a lot of this, but the big one is delegation. I would just shake myself and say, Tom, you can't do everything. And, like, you like like, literally, like, don't try to, like, you shouldn't be the one reconciling the bank accounts and then like, right. I mean, man, I was handwriting checks at one point to, like, give to our to give to our our landlord. Right?

Are all we're our office ones. It's like, you will you will go crazy and your business will just it just will never move forward if you are trying to do everything. So figure out what you're really good at, what you like doing, focus on those things, and get other people, whether part time, full time, or, you know, even automations. Like Yeah. Get those things off your plate and and and get those done elsewhere.

That's number 1. I think number 2 number 2 is real financial visibility. I mean Okay. Todd, like, just knowing, like I mean, I can open up a spreadsheet right now, and I can tell you I can tell you what our projected, like, revenue and profit is for for this month, which hasn't even closed. It closes today.

But I can also tell you what our revenue and profit was for the last 3 months, the last 12 months, the last 6 months, and I can tell you what we're projecting for the rest of the year. Right? So just the ability to do that is huge. Yes. It helps you sleep at night as an owner, but it also helps you, like, can I hire somebody?

Or is it, like, would it be crazy to hire somebody? Can I make this investment in this marketing initiative? Or, like, no. Do I actually need to, like, batten down the hatches and, you know, weather weather hard times? You don't know unless you have that that financial visibility.

And then, you know, lastly, I think I would say again, like, look for a support group. It doesn't have to be EO by any means. I mean, I also have I have a weekly call that I do every Thursday with just 2 other agency owners. You know, we're just we're in the same business. We have the same problems.

We we like, we get on this call. We and, like, we laugh and we cry together, and it's just, like, it's the best part of my week. But, like, I can't tell you how much we help each other, like, practically. Like, oh, like, yeah. I have somebody that can help you with that, or, oh, here's the number to that service does this.

So practical, but also, like, emotional and, like, mental well-being. Okay. I'm not in this alone. Yeah. Yeah.

So finding support is is definitely the 3rd piece of

Todd Gagne:

that. Well, I think it's good. I I do think the last one is is critical. I think being a business owner is a lonely business, right, if you don't do that. You know, there's all people bring you problems.

Right? They don't bring you good news. Most of the time, they bring you problems, things that they can't solve.

Tom Conlon:

Right.

Todd Gagne:

And so you kinda get pulled in so many different directions and people expect you to have the answers. And a lot of times you don't, and you got to go figure it out. And so having those networks, having those mentors, are critical to continuing your growth and and professional development. So, Tom, this has been good. I I appreciate you taking the time.

I, there's there's just a lot of honesty and transparency in what you're talking about. So, I appreciate that. I I think it's, humbling to people to kinda talk about, you know, the good and the bad. Right? Like, you know, entrepreneurship isn't for everything.

It's not always good, but it's a great ride. You do need to, you know, kinda grounded in reality, help, and you need a kind of a growth mentality to to really do it successfully. And so I think you've shared a lot of, good tips and wisdom, and I appreciate the time.

Tom Conlon:

Yeah. Thanks, Todd. I honestly I really enjoyed meeting you the first time, and this was a great chat. So thank you.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. Well, good. Thanks

Tom Conlon:

a lot.

Todd Gagne:

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