Todd Gagne:

 Today on the podcast, I'm talking with Bo Abrams. Bo is the CEO of Kommu, a trusted platform for apartment sharing. And it's got kind of a unique environment, of how he's doing it. He talks a little bit about how they're different than, you know, from Airbnb or Vrbo, and really geared towards, the 100,000,000 kind of nomadic or, folks that can work from a remote location. He talks a little bit about kind of some of his insights on fundraising, and really, like, why LA is such a great place to kind of build a tech company, on the consumer front.

 So I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Beau just as much as I did. Alright. Beau, welcome to the podcast. Welcome to the tree house. You're now in my tree house, so I appreciate that.

 It's probably the first interview you've ever done in a tree house.

Bo Abrams:

I am so excited to try to persuade you to list that tree house on Komen soon.

Todd Gagne:

There you go. There you go. That'd be good. Well, why don't you maybe give us a little bit about, kinda who you are and then, a little bit about, you know, what you're doing? I think that'd be a great place to start.

Bo Abrams:

Yeah. So I'm Beau Abrams. I'm the cofounder and CEO of Kommu. Kommu is your trust based home sharing and travel network. We allow anyone, even renters, to share their homes on their terms with and through the people they trust.

So people aren't Kommu gifting their homes to friends, subletting to friends of friends, swapping, doing trusted pet sitting. It's all this idea that the relationships are what matter most, and we're here to connect people for those days.

Todd Gagne:

Okay. Well, that's great. I mean, we'll dive into this a little bit more. But I'm kinda curious about, like, how how did you even arrive at this problem? Like, what?

I'm sure this had some personal, commitment no. It's a personal problem for you that you probably kinda focused on. So maybe tell me a little bit about your origin story. And I know you have a cofounder, Gus, that you kind of are doing this with.

Bo Abrams:

Yeah. So the origin story really comes back gets back to, like, when I was deciding to apply to business school. Ultimately, I had worked in finance, to start my career out of, college. Then I went to a start up to work in operations and really wanted to kinda get more, you know, hands on with the organization. And sort of at the same time, I had started a nonprofit for a friend, who was dealing with some some health care issues.

And I really got sort of involved in the venture health care space, which is a longer story. But I wanted to go to business school with initial originally to be in that venture health care space. And I I think I slowly realized even through that application process that I was never gonna be really successful there because, like, I was gonna be competing against PhDs and doctors, you know, at at those programs. But, ultimately, like, I was still, you know, deciding that I wanted to go to business school and to work in venture capital. That's all to say.

I knew that if I wanted to go to the top schools, I would have to really compete. And to do so would be to have a a really amazing GMAT score, which is, like, the standardized test that everybody takes to get into business school and to, like, really stand out on those applications. And so this time, I mean, when I was in high school, like, I didn't do any of this. Like, I had no tutors, no guidance. I got rejected left and right by all of the colleges I tried to get into.

I actually transferred to Haverford. Longer story. But this go around, I was like, I am not gonna lose to the people I can afford to be. Yeah. So I spent literally all the money I had on GMAT tutors and business school consultants to try to get into the top programs.

Of course, I still didn't get in, if I go around. But, no, I was I was supposed to go back east for business school. So it was my cofounder, Gus, which we'll talk about how we we met. But at that moment in time, I, you know, I decided to apply to UCLA around 3. UCLA Anderson because I'm from LA.

So it's my cofounder, Gus, who was supposed to go to another business school back east as well, because it was COVID, and we didn't wanna leave our families at this really uncertain time. And so I I got into UCLA, you know, was excited to stay local, and I decided, you know what? I just worked so hard. I just spent so much money. Let me take a trip to clear my head.

And I was dating somebody at the time when she suggested let's go to Whitefish, Montana. And I'm like, I've never even heard of Whitefish, Montana, but like, sure. Let's go. And this is right as travel was really starting to open up out of the pandemic. And I remember going on this trip, and it was just the best time.

It was beautiful. It was, like, so exactly what I needed. And I remember we stayed and we booked, you know, a pretty crappy Airbnb, and for and I can only afford 4 nights at that crappy Airbnb. It was more expensive than most of the hotels that I'd ever purchased in my life. And on the same on the in the same vein, I have this 1 bedroom apartment in LA, which takes up most of my spend and most of my cost of living.

And because I'm a renter, I realized that I could not list it on a platform like Airbnb to recoup any value while I was gone. I had to sit there empty, while I was away. And so, you know it was like that thought was kind of just percolating in my mind. Meanwhile, we used Turo to, like, book a car. Yep.

Bo Abrams:

I'm thinking, like, man, like, if I can use Turo to book a car, like, why can't I do that with my house? And the argument would be, well, that's Airbnb. And so that's where the wheel start turning. So I'd go to business school. I had no intention of starting a company.

Going to business school and going into student debt and then starting our company is, like, the worst device I would you know, don't do that. Just still, like, that is a a bad idea. And I meet Gus, my co founder, who is the opposite of me. He took the GMAT one time without any tutoring and got a perfect score. But we I know.

Right? But we were talking about this that we were actually remote capable workers before the pandemic, And that we had pretty decent paying jobs and we literally could not afford to travel because it was so prohibitively expensive. And so once the pandemic came and a 100,000,000 workers in the US alone became remote capable, we realized there was an opportunity. A lot of that was because we found this, website homeexchange.com. Have you heard of HomeExchange before?

Todd Gagne:

I have. Yep.

Bo Abrams:

Yeah. So we were, like, looking into this website. And what we found was, like, 1st and foremost, HomeExchange context is a home swapping site. So the idea is people go on there and they could swap homes directly either point, like, asynchronously or synchronously, like a direct swap. And we were like, wait a second, like, this, you know, if you built this for young people, that's that's probably a big opportunity.

The reason was that we looked into it, they had $30,000,000 of annual recurring revenue estimated. Wow. And they were targeting 45 to 64-year-old homeowners, not those young cash-strapped millennials and Gen Zers that are gonna make up most of global travelers by next year. Had a significant financial need for a platform like that. So we started ideating and testing.

And I think this kind of speaks to just the entrepreneurial journey, like seeing if there's something that has, like, legs there. Initially, we called the company swapped, s w a p t, like swap apartment. And slowly but surely, like, through that iterative process, we found this broader opportunity to essentially build a social network for your home where, you know, even now we have a Home Swappers group that is a subnetwork of a broader platform that we are, you know, really trying to scale at this moment in time. So that's a long-winded answer of how we got there. But ultimately, the idea was we knew that we had to go forward and build this thing.

Like, we saw those signs of traction and of life. And I think Gus and I ultimately, what we decided on was, look, it's really scary to be an entrepreneur, But it would be really dangerous not to go forward and try it given that we saw the opportunity. Because then when I I mean, I think us too, we'd be questioning if we're really the people that we, you know, we wanna be. Those people that take action and go forward when they see, you know, the potential to build something great that we believe also makes the world a better place. So that's why we're here

Todd Gagne:

today. Yeah. It's pretty cool. Did you guys get to do kind of, the business plan kind of in business school? And so you guys had some opportunity to work together on this kind of common vision while you're going through school?

Bo Abrams:

Yeah. But I will say, like, that was probably one of the most frustrating parts about business school was that in this case, right, there was a capstone that was great that like, we could, like, put a team together and work on this business plan. We must have done 7 or 8 business plans in business school, and that was maybe the greatest waste of time for a tech startup that needs to be lean and be iterating and experimenting. You know, but if it does, it's still very grateful for that process, and it did actually force us to really think, you know, through every aspect of the business. And And even, like, you know, building a financial model, like, that's not something I would advise a lot of startups to do in the earliest of stages, but, like Yep.

You know, it did make us think through every single aspect of the business. I will say, in retrospect, it's about moving fast and and testing and iterating and experimenting quickly and then getting to the point where you have, you know, traction and then talk about a business model in retrospect?

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. I I guess, the double edged sword on that one is I think sometimes the financial model is good to, like, start getting better at estimating your assumptions. Right? Like, I think a lot of times people just don't have any idea of, like, what things cost or, like, what I can charge or any of that sort of stuff. And so I think maybe most of that gets thrown away because you don't end up using it, but it does kinda ground you in some reality, to go, like, do the smoke test, did it pass that?

And so, anyway, for our founders, like, I I think that's helpful sometimes.

Bo Abrams:

Yeah. And I will say, you know, I totally think it depends on the type of business that you're trying to start. That's true. And kind of, like, even if there are comparable businesses in the market, right, that you can start to benchmark to and then and to be, like, rigorous in testing those assumptions. But I totally agree with you.

Like, it was a good exercise. I just think 7 business models was maybe 6 too many. Yeah. You know, at the but it was still great. Yeah.

Well, good.

Todd Gagne:

Well, tell me talk to me a little bit about your partnership with Gus. You find somebody, which is not always easy. Right? Finding somebody, a founder. It sounds like you guys have some, overlapping skills and some complementary skills.

And so maybe talk to me a little bit about, how that relationship kinda came and then how you divided kind of responsibilities, as you kinda stood up the company.

Bo Abrams:

Yeah. I mean, I think what ended up happening was I really at this in those earliest, you know, stages where I was even just talking to people, like, thinking about this problem, I met Gus and it was like just really like a friendship in that, you know, in those initial moments of, like, just starting a business school, meeting somebody new, and sort of hitting it off and having chemistry. And then, you know, lo and behold, like, when you do start to think about starting a company, especially a tech company, it helps to have somebody technical. I think one of the hardest things that people struggle to find is a technical CTO or cofounder. So Gus is a full stack engineer who, you know, is a CS major at Stanford.

They were probably like he had worked at Cisco for 5 years previously. And I think there were, like, 4 or 5 people in business school in general where, like, all the people that were kind of getting an entrepreneurial itch like me that had no idea what it was like to build a tech company were like that, you know, let's get let's go find one of those people. Yep. And yeah. And while I might not have maybe tons of, let's call it, like, tremendous skills to to talk about in terms of, like, my direct experience and how it lays specifically to Kommu, I do like to think that maybe a skill of mine was my ability to convince Gus to, you know, just to kinda walk away from what would have been a very high paying opportunity to go be a product manager, which is what he went to business before.

To to say, like, hey. You know what? We can do this. And then ultimately, like, I will like, we are really similar in a lot of ways. Like, we're totally, like, you know, we have great relatability and, like, friendship there.

But we also have, like, very distinct differences. Like, we always call it, like, the eagle and the owl, which is just so it's really reductionist. But, like, I'm pretty, like, broad and out there and kind of, like, have done a lot of different roles and a lot of different things where it's discussed, like, whether it's technical or not. Like, his ability to sort of dial in and, like, really, you know, see and find, like, where there might be, like, either logical gaps in your assumptions or, like, even in the business plan where things are just getting lost. Like, we complement each other in that way.

Yeah. And then ultimately through all of this, like, now that we've been essentially working together for 3 or 4 years, I think the best part of our partnership is that, like, we've been in it through the hardest of times. Like, it's this like, we've stuck through the wringer, and we're still here, and we're still enthusiastic about what we're doing every day. And as somebody that worked on the fund, you know, the investing side, like, I saw that a lot of companies do go under because mostly the team falls apart. Like, somebody loses that belief.

And so I think I feel exactly. Like, I'm just I think that, like, our our greatest strengths are that we both take action. We went forward, and we just did it. We didn't let the market tell us what to do in terms of, like, the fundraising market. Yeah.

And that we are still in it, like, that we're resilient, and, I'm proud of that.

Todd Gagne:

Well, that's good. That's awesome. So maybe go back to a little bit about the experience. You know, you talked about these 100,000,000 people that can actually, you know, be digital nomads and work in a bunch of different places. You talked about kind of the swap component of it.

You know, I I signed up for the service. I took a look at what you could find in Brooklyn versus, you know, what you can find in Airbnb. And, you know, dramatic difference. Right? Like, I mean, if you, you know, especially with fees and all the other pieces that go on to it.

So I don't know. I'm not exaggerating, but, like, maybe 2.50 a night versus probably find something for $80. Right? And so Yep. That enables people to that want to travel, that maybe are on a a smaller budget, the ability to do it.

But, like, you I think you you just you've had some, firsthand experiences where, you know, you've read at your place out. You've gone to New York. So maybe just talk about, like, the the firsthand experiences, and then maybe somebody else's, like, just other people that have been using it for different applications.

Bo Abrams:

Yeah. I mean, it really boils down to trust and affordability, and this idea that those two components really work well when you talk about relationships and the people we know. Because the people we know are the people that we trust and, like, ultimately, that's what we're doing on Como. Right? So on the host side, you as a host can list your home however you want.

Most people are listing their homes for cost. Right? It's really this idea that this is not a place like a short-term rental platform for you to drive a profit. If you wanna do that, you should go to Airbnb and register that. But, like, there's a reason you need to register that.

It's because there's a tremendous negative effect on local Communities when everybody's incentive is to buy up 2nd, 3rd, 4th homes, list them as investment, you know, properties, and try to drive profit off of the stranger. We're kinda saying, well, if that's the case, if that's sort of what happens in terms of that market as it matured, there's this giant gap in the donut hole of, you know, nothing that fits that trust and affordability void, especially for young travelers. Like, you either stay at a hotel or an Airbnb and they're tremendously expensive, or you're, like, at a hospital where you might be sharing a room with a stranger and you might not feel safe. And so when we were kind of going through this process and even pivoting, you know, away from, let's call it, the pure swapping model, What we found were that people were, like, constantly posting on their Instagrams, like, you know, looking for a place like subletting preferred to be a friend of a friend.

Bo Abrams:

when we were swapping platform, it's like, if you and I met on swap when we were that, and then we did a swap, like, you know, let's call it South Dakota, you know, to LA. Once this relationship was formed, like once we got here, we wouldn't pay a platform, you know, a transaction fee.

Todd Gagne:

Right. I just see you guys get contacted for

Bo Abrams:

We're gonna go direct. And so Yeah. Really it was to say, like, oh, if we build this, you know, this this model where we actually show people how they're connected, where we're not worried about this intermediation at all because we're not charging any transaction fees, and where we come in and we underwrite for, like, an annual subscription essentially, those stays with those wider networks to get people comfortable, you know, to do this more frequently. That is really, like, servicing what we were seeing in the market and when we were talking to our users in a way that is preferred. It creates more value for them as both hosts and guests.

So, you know, ultimately, in my first hand experience, like, a good example would be and by the way, there were other issues with I would call it the swapping model in terms of, like, asymmetry of dates. Like, asymmetry

Todd Gagne:

Yeah.

Bo Abrams:

Of the value of the home and things like that, versus here, like, we've created a dynamic marketplace. And so, like, a good example from my use case would be, we did the ERA accelerator in New York City for a few months last summer, which was an awesome experience. And so I went to New York. I stayed at a friend of a friend of a friend's place for $100 a night. So which was right?

Like, their rent was about $3,000 in New York. And I charged $70 a night for my place in LA, and another friend of a friend actually booked my place. So net, I was paying $30 a night to have my own place in East Village in New York City for, you know, 4 months. Like, it just it couldn't beat that. And a lot of what, you know, our users, you know, find valuable really differs.

Right? So, like, a good example is a lot of the women that use our platform were harping on trust and safety being, like, the primary driver why they were adopting. And some of those were our investors the admins of that group, and it was you'd have to apply to get in. And, you know, once you're approved, like, that was a safe, connected sort of place for for, you know, women to sort of share homes with women for trust and afford for trust and safety primarily.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah.

Bo Abrams:

And so and then, again, that's like another subgroup where you do have a dynamic marketplace within that, but you're giving hosts and guests the controls about how they want their experience to be and, like, what their primary motivations are on the platform.

Todd Gagne:

That's pretty cool. And so this kinda brings up I mean, it's like a social network around the home swapping. Get it. And then it seems like the value is though this group's concept, right, where it's like you can create a group about just amongst anything. Right?

You can say it's, my first, you know, level connections. You have both, Instagram integration as well as LinkedIn. But then, you know, there's maybe a second-order and third-order people there, and then you can create whatever you want. So if you wanna do something really specific, you certainly could build something on that too. And so just talk to me about the whole kind of evolution of where you guys started with kind of the group's idea.

I mean, I think the social network of, like, one, you know, one level of connection that's my direct friend versus the next one, that seems kind of apparent. But then this idea of adding these groups that are kind of, you know, specific women only or whatever group that you wanna do, that's kinda unique. And I think it can create this kind of ecosystem to what talking about for what are you looking for, and then how do we kind of drive you so that you find your kin and that you find home swaps or, you know, apartment swaps for what you wanna do.

Bo Abrams:

Yeah. I mean, you know, it's it's become like a foundation of Como. So just for some context, initially, like when we were testing for Kommu and, like, building this let's let's call it network of home sharing amongst friends and friends of friends to start, We pushed live in the App Store. We could talk more about, like, the learnings of that, but, like, ultimately, we pushed live and went public. And, what ended up happening was we'd realized we had, like, a big problem, which was, like, if you didn't have friends on Kommu, the assumption would be like, oh, well, Todd's gonna see the value of, like, building this home sharing network, and he's gonna invite his friends.

He could do that. And, like, great. He's like, we just created a lot of value for Todd. Turns out that if you come to an app and you see that you don't see anything on there, even if we explain to you, like, the value of it, you're not gonna go out of your way to invite your friends this new thing that you don't really fully, understand. And it runs contrary, I think, to, like, what we stand for, which is this idea, like, democratizing your home and not making it, like, so exclusive and gatekeeping it only for certain friends and people to start.

It's really like, no. Let's let's see what happens when we open things up. And so as we were having some issues, like, you know, really fixing that, we're like, well, if you look at what's happening in the market, there are these massive groups on platforms like Facebook and WhatsApp, and then there's massive companies and groups that are, you know, out there, that we are really competing with, but we're trying to consolidate into this platform. And what we're saying is, like, actually, if you just mimic where those groups already exist on Kommu and then you add the social component, you send essentially let people come in and have this public experience to start because there are public groups. There are hosts like me listing all of Kommu, and you guide them.

You say, hey, by the way, if you do wanna control who you list to as a host, if you do only want to, you know, share, that availability with specific friends or groups, you can do that. Right? It's but, like, let's show you the value upfront, which is essentially fee free social proofing Airbnb for 1 fifth the cost, and then show you that, you know, there's more of a network effect that takes hold the more people that you do invite and connect with on Kommu. And so that was the big moment for us. Like, let's actually open things up, see how people behave in these these groups, and then ultimately drive them to more value over time.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. It's interesting. I guess, you know, just getting on, you know, and I tried to look through all of my folks on Instagram and in LinkedIn. And not surprising, I'm probably at your rate demographic. There wasn't a lot of fit.

The question becomes is, is there an enhancement over time where you start to, look at where you're having a lot of Communication maybe in some of these networks and then basically send those people, an invite to it. Right? Where it's like, can I tier, like, the 5,000 people that I have on LinkedIn knowing that, like, most of them I don't have a lot of Kommunication with, but there's probably 25 or 30 that I have a ton of Kommunication over the years with and have some longevity, and those are pretty pretty good candidates? And the same thing with Instagram. Right?

You've got whether it's family members or close friends. There's probably some, you know, graph where I can start to say these are the people that would be good to, like, get onto the platform, And it subdivides this, like, massive opportunity which maybe is too much exposure. I don't want all these people swapping homes with, but there's a subset of that.

Bo Abrams:

Exactly. I mean, I think that you nailed it in that the social graph and the ability to do that as seamlessly and as effectively as possible using the data that we have at our disposal, whether that is through integrations and APIs with other preexisting networks or actually with the, you know, the data and the integrations that we're getting ourselves is the key. Right? How do we, like, make it so that when Todd signs up and maybe does give us his Gmail, does give us his LinkedIn in a sense that we're told telling him, hey. We're not trying to harvest this data in any way.

We're just actually trying to show you all the people that are meaningful connections to you. Yeah. That that you will decide if you wanna become, you know, friends with OnKommu. That's the key. And it really is this belief that that's actually still a massive, massive, massive opportunity.

Like, Airbnb kinda harps on this a lot. And, really, I I will say, like, when I think about the opportunity, I think that, you know, the amazing team at Airbnb has talked and, like, validated this opportunity, but they can't build for towards it at all because of what they've kind of unleashed from Pandora's Box. And that's, like, why it's so nice for me and Gus where we're, like, the this amazing team and amazing company has, like, done a lot of the validating and they've created the path for us. But it's this idea that, like, what, you know, really truly we travel to connect, and that it's about higher quality connections now. Like, we're wanting we're wanting to move away from these big networks, these Instagrams and LinkedIns where you're trying to build a following, and they have a totally different utility and purpose to, like if I can get Todd to have his, you know, 40 closest friends on Komoot, that's a massive win and a massive network, especially if you start to see how much you all are traveling and how much available inventory is there when you guys just actually centralize that.

But then when you do wanna open that up to second degree and even, like, to these public groups, it's this idea that, like, even all of Airbnb's 500,000,000 users worldwide are, like, 3rd degree connected on the on the fringes. Most of them are second degree. And that's the beautiful thing. It's like you can have either experience. You can but getting your 40 closest friends and you just using this for free amongst each other in perpetuity and never even charging each other on Kommu, like, just because you wanna build that network is the ultimate goal and the ultimate win that we're trying to to build towards and reveal over

Todd Gagne:

time. Yeah. That's great. It's a cool vision, and, I think it's gonna resonate with lots of folks. You've you've kind of alluded to a couple times in this conversation already about some of the regulations and and kind of what has happened with Airbnb and pressure on local markets and stuff.

So maybe maybe just start with, giving a little bit more context to that. I mean, you're in it day to day, but, like, for our listeners, like, talk a little bit about how, you know, basically just home sharing and, like, the secondary opportunity for, you know, getting income has changed the economics. And then places like New York City are starting to change the regulations, which is creating a little bit of an interesting spot for where do companies like yourself really sit.

Bo Abrams:

Yeah. And and let me, you know, let me preface this by saying, like, I really do think that, like, without these regulations in place, strategically thinking, right, like, even if we had this amazing social network that we built for homes and it started to scale, a smart competitor like an Airbnb would try to come in and just say, like, oh, we have way more assets and a, you know, a way bigger team. We're gonna try to beat you out of the market really quickly. Sure. You know, this is this is like Porter's 5 Forces of Business School.

This this is where maybe once it finally pays off, business school. But, no, ultimately, it's this idea that, like, look. Airbnb did start as this. Right? It was this idea that, like, people were initially coming online and trying to share a room or share a home to make a little bit of extra cash.

And ultimately, what what Airbnb proved in my opinion isn't that we want strangers in our homes. It's that we want strangers in our second homes, that we can maximize our profits off of. And so over time, what's ended up happening is, like, short term rentals, the entire industry has has professionalized. Most of these hosts are now investment management properties. Like, there's even, like, a Blackstone ETF tracking, like, short term rental properties.

And the effect of that is obviously massive inflation, which is, by the way, tied to the fact that, like, now that all of us want to travel so much more, like, of course, prices are gonna drive up in that market, and limited housing supply, like in cities like New York where, like, it's already increasingly, you know, expensive to try to live there as a young person, and work there. So, these ordinances came into effect in the cities, mostly in New York, LA, SF. And the idea was, to stop that supply from being bought and listed for, you know, for investment purposes. Like, I even right now, if I if I go on TikTok, and I search Airbnb, it's a bunch of young people trying kinda, like, get rich quick schemes or they're doing Airbnb arbitrage of, like, how to call a landlord and get their approval to, like, do Airbnb, and then to, like, you know, what's it gonna cost to run that to rent that versus to lease it on Airbnb or list it. So

Bo Abrams:

These ordinances really, came into effect. I mean, the the biggest one was was definitely local law 18 that passed in, in October in New York, which effectively, like, the fact that banned Airbnb. And the reason it actually worked is because Airbnb had and and Vrbo had lost a a suit back in 2016, in San against Santa Monica where, essentially they tried to claim, like, hey. We're we're just a network. We're, you know, not like hotels.

You know, we we should not be regulated in this way. And the city said, no. You are essentially facilitating commercial transactions, which we totally agree they are. And you should not only be take pay taxes like that, like hotels, but, you you know, you're destroying some of these Kommunities in that way and, like, kind of like the, you know, the integrity of what those Kommunity stand for and it builds over time. And so it forced anybody that wants to listen Airbnb, especially in those cities, to then register and and adhere to broader mandates and laws.

So, like, there are rules about how long you can list that home for. You know, there's rules about, I I I think there's gonna be more and more rules about, like, if you are in the home at the same time, as as the guests and it what if you even local IT teams, like, you have to have all your doors unlocked, which, like, nobody's really gonna do.

Bo Abrams:

that is to prevent this professionalization. Now Airbnb is doing a lot to to fight that right now. And I think if you look back at, like, what their total supply is globally, like, even on the downside of, like, if there was no Airbnbs in New York or LA or SF, that's, like, still only 1% of the market that they're tapping into.

Todd Gagne:

Yep.

Bo Abrams:

But beyond that, I think they make a really good point, which is, look, you kick Airbnb out of New York City, what's happened to the average daily rate of hotels? Skyrocketed. Hotels are now worth, like, over now $500 or more a night. So what's happening? Everybody's turning back to, like, these Facebook groups to posting on Instagram to texting their friends.

Like, this behavior will always be there because obviously, there's no consumer protection right in that way. Like, there's like, all of us are like, well, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna pay $500 a night to go to a hotel in New York City now? Yeah. And so Kommu really, like, we this was actually where the business plan totally came into effect.

And I will now I will now walk back what I said about business plan. Gus and I entered into, the largest business plan and pitch competition at UCLA across the law school and the business will call it Lowell Milken. And we really dug into those ordinances. And that's where we really, like, understood why Airbnb was was out of the market and, like, that commercialization piece really was the through line across those major cities. And we were like, well, wait a second.

If we don't charge transaction fees, then essentially, like, we are not contributing the commercialization. And if you put that in tandem with all the other startups in the space that are now emerging that are also addressing this in different ways, you ultimately have this kind of wave of companies coming in that inevitably will face regulators one day. Like, when you scale and, you know, you're creating that value, that's gonna happen. But then we get to come in and actually show in our data and everything else kinda like just what you said earlier that, like, look, people aren't listing their homes for $250 a night. They're listing them for $80 a night.

And the reason they're doing that is because they have a right to to utilize that asset, that's their most expensive asset and their most expensive cost of of living. And so that was the moment of, like, just by avoiding transaction fees and by preventing hosts from listing for a profit, which we can talk more about that in the grand vision of Komoot. We can show that we don't have that effect. And that is the is really the key to to kind of working with these regulators to show over time that this is actually a good thing and good competition in the market to keep hotels from monopolizing it.

Todd Gagne:

The downside is, you know, you don't have a great place to monetize. Right? Like, so that's where Airbnb is taking a cut of every transaction. They have a understanding of what you're paying. You're going through their platform.

You're taking a percentage. So, today, your platform's free. You've talked a little bit even in this conversation about kind of subscription model. Maybe just talk about ways you think, like, over time, these platforms are always tough. Right?

Because you need a ton of people on it and you need inventory. And then once you feel like you got a critical mass, then you certainly, the subscription and other monetizations start to kind of fall into it. So maybe talk a little bit about how you're thinking about monetizing this over time.

Bo Abrams:

Yeah. I mean, I I I will say, like, definitely, like, Airbnb drives, you know, $9,000,000,000 annual revenue. But, ultimately, that's transaction fees to get an average of, you know, of of of a person to take 2 trips per year of those 500,000,000 users. Right? And so, really, the paradigm shift to subscription is this idea that, like, we all are traveling now more than ever before.

Like most millennials and Gen zers, their apartments are vacant now for, like, 30% plus of the year. So in that sense, we're saying, okay. If we can create more value by essentially underwriting and providing sort of similar features to Airbnb of, like, that protection, verification, knowing that, you know, Kommu's got your back when you're doing a stay with somebody that isn't your direct friend. And, you know, that we're doing it for something like $200 a year. Essentially, the big, you know, moment is like, oh, if I just do 2 nights as a host or guest on Kommu each year, I break even and everything above that is just it's consumer savings.

And we do think that's been proven by even platforms like Home Exchange over time, which, you know, ultimately, I was even a member of for, like, 3 years till I did one Home Exchange. And then after that, I was like, I'm gonna renew this just in case I do one of these trips every year because it's like a no brainer. And it was 3 years later, I was like, okay. This is not really my crowd. Not really you know, this is I'm not this is not the platform for me.

It's for when I'm 45. So back to the the business model. Like, we think that there is a huge opportunity to essentially take a giant mark you know, a giant patch of that market share away from Airbnb in that segment. And that's that most of Airbnb's 500,000,000 users are millennials and Gen z'ers, but they're not hosting on the platform because they can't. And so we're creating essentially host there.

We're giving them the one place they can list, and we're doing it in a way that they prefer, which is ideally through people they know and trust in finding those connections. And then on the guest side, you know, really we're marketing this like and and we're saying to those hosts, like, it's gotta be like Costco. You have to list for wholesale. And that's really the grand vision here of, like, saying and even to the regulators, like, look. We know we have data out there.

We could have them upload their leases, whatever it might be, that this apartment in New York City is $32100 a month. We're not gonna let them display it on our network for anything more than that. And hey, host. Again, if you wanna start to play the market and drive up those costs and, like, you know, try to profit off of people, you can go register on Airbnb and do that. But that's not that's not what we stand for.

And also, the social mechanisms of what we've done have already acted as a natural, like, deterrent in that way. Very much so. Right. Exactly. It's like we haven't even instituted that yet into the platform.

Like, you're right. Like, getting to that scale is really really critical masses then when you turn that on, and and you you know, you're ready to go. But, like, so far so good in that. People just don't wanna rip off the people, you know, people that they know or trust through, you know, friends of friends, and that's playing out in the market so far.

Todd Gagne:

What about the b to b side of this? Right? Like, I my previous career was, working for Concur. We did travel and expense. We were always looking for, you know, kind of alternative, you know, solutions to for travel.

Right? And so and I I did exactly what you talked about. Like, I had a guy in Seattle. Once I moved to South Dakota and I was still working in Seattle, I had a good friend, and, basically, I just gave him some cash every single time I went and stayed in his extra room. Right?

And so, it it seems like companies could probably build some of these circles, and groups just to do that and basically profit along those, especially start ups. Right? And especially remote start ups.

Bo Abrams:

You nailed it. And so, like, like, this is where like, we we do have a b to b model, and I look at b to b model like this actually like this venture scale floor of what we're doing in terms of, like, Gus and I have a lot of confidence each day that, like, that's a big giant opportunity even if that was just the sole opportunity of this company on the downside, but it levers us. It gives us the ability to to chase that big consumer dream of, you know, bringing online all these primary homes. So I was talking to just for, like, I guess, fundraising stories and just or really, you know, founder stories. We graduate business school in June of 2022, which if for those of you that don't know, started and kicked off the worst downturn in, like, start up history in in 20 years.

There's a lot of reasons for that, but, ultimately, like, it was definitely, an intense period for us. And I ended up talking to a lot of founders that I knew and just being like, hey. I worked in VC. I thought we were just gonna close so much money so quickly. Yeah.

And and go build this product and, like, really scale it up because of all the work and research we had done. Not the case. But a lot of those founders were seed or series a founders, and they're like, hey, Bo, try being a seed or series a founder right now. Like, we we like to get to from series a to then series b or seed to series a is an even more herculean task. And they were hemorrhaging cash and having to cut, you know, a lot of those expenses.

A lot of those companies were b to b and relied on traveling salespeople, especially young people that also had equity in these companies and wanted to see them succeed. And so we came up with this model where we said, like, what if those young people like when they're going to New York City for a conference or to meet potential clients? What if they stayed with like a direct friend of first reconnection in a spare room or in that vacant home? Would you pay that friend as a gift, like $100 a night? And all the companies that we talked to, they were like, obviously, like, Islam.

Yeah. Yeah. They're like they're like, if you save us money and you handle liability and payment, we're game. And then for us, it was kind of this moment of, like, this solves a lot of our problems. It's a reason to invite your friends.

Like, who would text that to their friends and be like, hey. If we booked this on Kommu, my company will pay you passive income for something you probably would have done for free anyways because we have a relationship. We in that model actually do take a cut of what's dispersed to host for facilitating that underwriting that. And the company save tremendous amount of money. Obviously, we think it's really geared towards, like, seed to series, like, b c plus startups, but Yep.

We have seen, like, Google Google built, like, an internal home sharing network, that it's up for, like, intra Google employees. Uh-huh. But in this case, we're really we're really the bridge between, you know, company, employee, and their per that employee's personal network that they want to stay with on these, you know, trips. So that's why we see a a tremendous opportunity there.

Todd Gagne:

I mean, it's cool. There's just a ton of different opportunities. But, like, maybe talk to me a little bit more about kind of your fundraising. You you started you had some VC backing or some VC experience. You probably were raising in a tough time.

So talk to me a little bit about, like, what went well and what didn't go well

Bo Abrams:

for you in that that process. Right?

Todd Gagne:

I mean, do do VC see the concept and the idea and the market opportunity? Is it a matter of proving it out? Like, what is it what is it that basically makes them struggle a little bit with that? Yeah. I mean, this is

Bo Abrams:

it's it there's a lot of things. Like, I I mean, first and foremost, I will say, like, I literally had to seen, like, hundreds of pitches and, like, had sourced a deal for the VC that I worked for. Like, I definitely was very confident, and I learned I was, like, the in the first few months of when we were fundraising, I was like, I look back now and, like, what was I doing? Like, I, like, I almost, like, violated every rule, like, sending giant emails with so many details and thing and, like, you just just like, I look at our deck, and I'm like, what was I thinking? You know?

Like, so that was just that was on me, and just learning, how to fundraise. Secondly, was, like, you know, we did have some competitors in the market that we, you know, we're still competing really effectively against that had had raised bigger rounds, right as we were graduating school, right before the downturn. And I think, you know, this all led to this environment where all of this kinda came together at a moment in time. And at the hardest thing about fundraising is you don't really know what the past is for. It could be for, like, one of ten reasons.

And without that feedback loop loop of, like, I know that Todd's passing for this exact reason. You're the only thing that you can do to improve is is volume, in my opinion. Like, the only especially these first time founders, like, you just have to do hundreds of pitches and you get lucky maybe earlier or later. But ultimately, like, that's how you solve for the fundraising problem. It's like just trying and seeing where you're getting momentum and traction.

So over that period of time to now, like, we have essentially been raising in a rolling basis. And a lot of that, like, there was a fund that came in early, and invested in us called SH Capital. And And what was great about them was, like, they they helped us kind of build our initial prototype and get to market really quickly, and that was really important for us in that. Like, we knew we were a 2 person team. Gus was the sole coder here.

Like, he could lock Gus away and say build Gomu in this way, and he would learn it and he would do it as quickly as he can. But strategically, we're like, we can get to market and beat them those competitors to market and get our product out there and learn faster and then go and scale the team. So we did that and that was awesome. Then through that period of time, like, you have to understand that, like, nobody was doing consumer pre seed. Like, that that concept was essentially gone.

And ultimately, I will say, like, even our traction, like, we even today, like, I think I'm really proud of our traction and our engagement and our retention. We have, like 500 hosts on the platform globally right now. And it's like almost that that traction, like works against you to some extent, because now you're always being held against that. You know, and so it's gotta go up to the right. Exactly.

And it's like, okay, well, you know, we we love all these things ready to go, like even the the business model and like the b to b model, like we are, we're closing this round out now. Like, do you turn that on? Because, like, that's the utility of what we're driving. Right? So, you know, that's all to say.

Like, we got to this moment where, really, like, the data painted the story. And, like, that's how Gus and I approach it of you know, we can have a philosophical debate of whether you believe in me or Gus as founders, whether you believe in the concept. And I can tell you, like, 30 good reasons to pass on Como, but obviously, like, in that fundraising game, you're looking for those founder those investors that believe in, like, the potential and the upside of it. It does all work out and how we're gonna get there and that we're the right team to do it. But ultimately, like, you know, you're just you're just playing a massive volume game until you get to this point.

Yeah. Where where you go can, like, point to the data and say, look. Actually, you know, you were concerned about engagement and retention. Like, are you concerned that air Airbnb only happens infrequently, it's not social, and we're showing that, like, people that are engaged on our app, which is, like, literally, you know, a 1,000 MAUs right now, they're spending 30 minutes a month on Kommu. Like, even that Zillow effect of just browsing people's homes, browsing people's trips.

And so you're seeing and showing and demonstrating that, like, actually, now we can answer that question. And the more you wait, you know, in terms of that fundraising journey, if you think you're gonna, like, you know, get in, the more likely that you're gonna miss your chance to come in on the deal at the right time. We did close a VC recently, which was awesome because that was that first domino to really fall, in terms of, like, having a larger institutional fund come in and back us. And now we're we're looking to close around and and just scale it up. But it's all it's just been a dog fight, but it's been fun too.

Todd Gagne:

Sounds like it. Yeah. It's a tough one. And I think this is, like, one of the things that, most founders, like, underestimate the amount of time and the amount of focus that it takes to go do it. My question to you is, like, I guess part of what we recommend is maybe doing more diligence on the front end to kind of filter to, like, what are, like, the ones that are maybe a good sweet spot.

And then it's like storytelling. You gotta, like, invest before you need the money, and then you're starting to tell them about the concept. You're starting to get a track record. You're telling them the metric's getting better. You're answering the questions along the way, you're building a relationship.

And so, like, that takes time, and it's like and that's time away from going to build your business. But I think sometimes when you have to do more of the shotgun method where you're sending all this stuff out, you still have to go do all of it. It just takes you a longer time, and you have less runway to go do it. And I don't know if that resonates with you at all. I think our fundraising in the Midwest is probably different than the coasts, and it's probably more relationship-based and there's probably less of them.

So maybe that's easier for us to do. But I'm just curious about, like, would that have made a difference? Do you think that's something in the LA scene you could have done?

Bo Abrams:

100%. I mean, I will say, like, it's it's kinda like what ended up happening with the GMAT too is is that, you know, I did get up there, and I'm proud of that growth, but it it happened over, like, a year and, like, at definitely moments where I was, like, on and off and, like, burnt out and then going forward. And, like, ultimately, if I could have compressed that time frame and really prepared and, like, known all the information I know today of, like, what the ideal tutor was, like, what the ideal program was for me, and done that research upfront, I I would have definitely saved myself some time. That being said, like, for me, the only way I learned any of that was through trying do it. Taking the practice test.

Yeah. And so fundraising, I kinda feel the same way of, like, you can have the perfect CRM. You can have and flag the perfect investors. And, like, now, for instance, if I were to go out and fundraise for any other company ever again, I'd know I would do it a 1,000 times better.

Todd Gagne:

That's different.

Bo Abrams:

So with every other, you know, every other founder after they go through this. But, like, at the end of the day, like, yeah, preparation is key. Finding relationships and ways it is is a huge, huge thing that I underestimated. Like, I'm a very social person. Like, I have a lot of great great, you know, friends and founders that, you know, care about me.

I feel like, you know, if I had really just set that up and given them all the things that they needed and kinda run that process initially that that would have saved me a ton of time. And then I would say, like, yeah, you do wanna flag your, like, target investors. It just depends. Like, ultimately, I think in my case, and I think most founders are this way, you still wanna, like, kinda get the early hiccups out of the way Yep. And try and and pitch in, like, even and, you know, same way to do it would be pitch other founders or, like, pitch people from your accelerator or whatever.

But, like, you know, it's to say, like, that just had to be my case. Right? It had to be that I had to go out and maybe I took a couple shots with the funds that I should've waited for.

Todd Gagne:

Right.

Bo Abrams:

And then in retrospect, I think the hardest thing is it's it's like high school. It's like, yeah, you keep a lot of funds posted, you send them the updates and whatever, but that impression bias is a real thing. Like, I think a lot of people will be you know, if if that if you met me in high school and you were a senior and I was a freshman, even later in life, like, you're probably gonna still see me as a freshman. And I'm really, like, you know, in in the fundraising analogy, I'm knocking on the door, like, hey, I'm a senior now, like, look, look at like all this stuff like that. You know?

Yeah. Exactly. So it's knowing how to take those shots and like when to go to like a top fund that fits the perfect pieces that you're like, that's our dream fund. Find your in and know that you're like ready for it. Like, you believe it yourself.

And that's what I would have done in retrospect like, gotten to this point of confidence, and then gone out and pitch like the top ones that I wanted to pitch.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. That's good. That's good, hindsight. And it's always easier with a crystal ball. Right?

If you'd known, you know, you would have done it differently. But, I think Yeah. Sharing these experiences so somebody else that's listening maybe can take a look and say, I gotta find my path, and I'm gonna take a lot of opinions and some other things that people did right and wrong and work from there. So

Bo Abrams:

so now you have founders wanna wanna help. They wanna they wanna give you advice. Like like, reach out and, like, and talk to them, and you'll learn a lot. You'll save it for yourself a lot of time.

Todd Gagne:

That's true. That's a good point. So you've got kind of this market opportunity. You've, you know, built a product. You're getting traction, and now you're getting investment.

Like, how do you think about scaling the platform? Like, going to market stuff is tough. And and, like, I'm more of a b to b guy than a b to c guy. But, like, how do you think about, like, the work, that you do? Like, I listened to an interview you did, and it was just it was awesome to, like, say I think you were talking about a trip to New York City and just talking to anybody just to try to get on the platform.

Right? And so that boots on the ground, like, I'm willing to do whatever. It doesn't scale. It helps you get you where you're at today. But now kind of where you are from a platform standpoint, like, how do you think about going to market now that you've got some money, that you can use as fuel to kind of, like, raise the visibility and ramp this thing up?

Bo Abrams:

Yeah. I mean, it's that you talk about underestimating fundraising, like, underestimating marketing and going to market, I think is is also the thing that most founders, totally underestimate and don't spend a lot of time with yeah. On. And it's, like, definitely a key focus of what we're doing now. So, you know, you're right.

Like, initially, you have the cold start problem and, like, a lot of the cold start problem for marketplaces, right, is initially to say, like, well, go get supply first and then, you know, scale demand. And I I will say I typically believe most marketplaces have that problem more towards, like, the seed. Like and that's what they're raising the seed for. It's like, we know now we have supply. Like, we're gonna go get demand.

You know, in our case, like, we have we have supply. Like, a lot of these hosts, and they're the most active on our platform, which is amazing because they have a financial need to fill their home with somebody, or they're gonna go $3,000 when they're away, you know, when they're away. And so, really, right now, like, it's about finding mechanisms and ways to scale that demand and to do it in a way that is authentic and builds real Kommunity and most likely brings online people that are connected in some way to our host and our target users. They're, you know, 24 to 35 years old. They're single or they're in a couple.

They have a studio, 1 bedroom, or maybe a 2 bedroom, and ideally one of these major cities. So the way we're approaching that is is definitely, like, we're trying a lot of different tactics. It's it's similar in that. It's throwing a lot of spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. Yep.

First and foremost, it's like what I mentioned previously, just building these groups that mimic the behavior we're already seeing in the market in platforms that are not as good at social proofing and home sharing. So, like, finding those Facebook groups or those WhatsApp groups and, you know, where people are explicitly there for home sharing and talking to those, those users is is a big advantage and and win for us. And I will say, like, we learned this the hard way too. You can't just go to those groups and, like, try to poach people. They're very, and they're very loyal to those Communities, which is amazing.

But if you just ask them about their problems and ask them, like, you know, what they're trying to do there, like and you get on on the line with them like this and you you humanize yourself as a founder of, like, I'm just trying to learn. Most of the time, they will then go if you even if you don't ask them to download Kommu and download it and then love it and then tell their friends about it. Friends about it. Yep. Which is good.

And that's really and that's the trick, right, is to get to a point where you are, like, having that network effect of people in virality of people telling their friends about it. So that's one. The second thing is building tools then to allow people to share their homes in those groups more seamlessly where they would say, like, oh, you know, even if I'm posting in a WhatsApp group that I'm a part of, here's my Komoot link. You can click this. And now here's my LinkedIn.

Here's my Instagram. Like, here's how you would wanna book it. And then making that a great utility and a tool for those hosts is is the second thing. And beyond that, it's just like finding different groups and launches and saying, like, where can we be most effective because there's a need. Like, business school students are a great example.

We, you know, we didn't have summer internships necessarily because we're working on Camu. But, like, if we did and we had to go to New York and we're paying a 12 month lease, you better believe that, like, we're trying to find somebody to fill our our homes in LA and trying to find an affordable place in New York so that not all of our internship dollars are going to to that problem, the double rent problem. So that's like where I'm gonna try to, like, try more calculated launches and find, like, different strategies to say, like, how do we capitalize on those opportunities where this would be a really great solution for that? And I will say, like, I always had trepidations about doing things that don't scale. Like, I was always in that camp of, like, well, how do you scale?

Like, that's the this is the problem. Is it not? And the doing things that don't scale, like, every host that onboards, like, has an opportunity to just, like, click a Calendly link and talk you know, just meet with me and just talk for 15 minutes. And, like, not only have I learned more by doing that than anything else that I've done, but I've, like, you know, I've really felt like it's helped us build this organic authentic Kommunity where those hosts, they're like, okay. You know what?

This company they're trying. They have this problem. They're not just too greedy people that, like, wanted to go get rich off an idea. Like, they're solving their own problem. And, yeah, is it perfect?

No. Like, they're learning and they're growing and they're doing everything they can to move this thing as fast as humanly possible. I'm gonna go to bat for them and tell my friends about it. I'm gonna, like, I'm I'm gonna be a part of this company with them and evangelize it. And that has been, like, the greatest catalyst into our growth in my opinion, because it just it creates an environment where people are encouraged to invite their friends and networks on for, you know, something that basically creates value for everybody on the platform, post and guest alike.

So do all those things that don't scale even when you scale. Like, keep going and doing that as much as you can.

Todd Gagne:

Yeah. And so, I mean, I think some of the things I hear in that is, authenticity. Right? And and trust. And, like and so there's a bunch of things that even in your marketing that you really can kind of replicate.

Right? It's it's, you know, and I think this is always the problem with startups where the founders have that, but it, like, can you translate in that into more employees, to your marketing, to your messaging? And so, you know, I think you've got it, and you're practicing it. The question is then what are the tools that help you scale it to, like, these markets may have been under a lot of regulatory pressure to start with, and then expand from there? But it's it's awesome, and it's a cool story.

So I appreciate it. Yeah. And I

Bo Abrams:

think that's the fun challenge. Figure that out.

Todd Gagne:

A fun challenge. Yeah. Yeah. So let's turn a little bit. You know, we always hear about the valley and and San Francisco and stuff, but, you know, you hear more and more, especially on the consumer side of what's going on in LA.

Right? I mean, you got Snap, you got Tinder, you got Headspace, you got Riot you got, Riotspace, you got, ServiceTitan. I mean, you got a lot of stuff that's going on from a technology standpoint. So, you got better weather, no question about it, than the Bay. And so what what's starting to happen there in LA that's creating kind of a catalyst around kind of consumer brands?

Bo Abrams:

It's so funny you mentioned the weather because Gus and I always joke and, you know, I went to undergrad back east. He went underground in the bay. And we're always like, oh, oh, that's why there's so many great companies from the bay. It's like, it's so dark gloomy that, like, all you do is build it's so beautiful here in LA that, like, I gotta go outside.

Todd Gagne:

Let's go

Bo Abrams:

to the beach. Exactly. No, I think, you know, the beautiful I'd love. I'd love this question. Because I am of the belief that like, there's some, for instance, there's some accelerators and some VCs and whatnot that are like, you've gotta be in the city, you know, if if we're gonna invest in you and, like, and, you know, innovate there, which makes sense at the gate economically.

But I'm, like, technology is this democratizing, connecting force across the world. It's this idea that you can be in rural South Dakota and build a massive, massive company because it doesn't require that you have, you know, a ton of physical infrastructure and, you know, people boots on the ground consistently in a factory. Though, you're right that these pockets of culture have kind of been created where, like, New York is really a fintech, and in the bay is, like, obviously, Silicon Valley and these massive, you know, both b to b and consumer companies. But LA, like, is, in my opinion, the consumer capital of the world. I think we are leaders when it comes to, like, sort of setting the tone in the culture of, like, what consumers want because definitely in vain, but, like, you know, truly, like, LA is obsessed with that.

Like, it's obsessed with, you know, trying to be the leader there. I think New York has a lot of that too. And so, yeah, you're exactly right. It's, like, it's it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. You see these companies like Honey and Snap and Sirius Titan, right, coming online.

And then more and more founders flock to those, this environment. A lot of it, the investors are focused on consumer companies, that are that are headquartered here. And so it's becoming more and more of that at that place. And I think even with, like Amazon and Netflix, all those media and entertainment companies kind of turning more into technology companies, if you're gonna see more and more of that, that being said, like, if we've learned one thing I mean, we're building a company that's predicated on the idea that you can't work and live anywhere. Right.

You know, like, obviously, we're LA founders. We want to be the next great company out of LA. But also, like, we we don't wanna just be known as an LA company. Right? We're trying to be a company that's about connecting the world.

So Yeah. They will know we're from LA, but they will not know you know, we don't have to be, you know, the next service titan or or snap per se.

Todd Gagne:

Yep. Well, that's good. Well, Bo, I'm gonna wrap this thing up. I I really appreciate the time and the candor. I it's just a cool opportunity.

It's a cool story. I appreciate you sharing it. And, you know, some of the good things as well as the things that didn't always go well. So your your humility and authenticity certainly came through. If people wanna, to learn more and connect with you, like, how do they do that?

Bo Abrams:

Yeah. I mean, if you wanna learn more, you can check out our website at go Kommu.com. So that's k o m m u, like Kommunity, dot com. Our Instagram and, you know, TikTok handles and all that, they're also go Kommu, handles. If wanna reach out to me directly, you can definitely, ping me on LinkedIn or on, Twitter.

Fo h aprons on Twitter. You can DM me. Again, happy to chat. I love, you know, what you're doing here, Todd, in terms of, like, really helping founders, you know, find their way and feel empowered to go build some companies and try things. And so I I've I've definitely, you know, relied on founders to get to this point, and I'm happy to talk to anybody that has any questions about anything when it comes to to trying to build a business.

Todd Gagne:

Okay. Well, that's great. That's very generous of you, Bo. I appreciate it. So thanks again, and, I I appreciate the time.

Bo Abrams:

Yeah. Thank you. Okay.

Todd Gagne:

 If you enjoyed the podcast today, please just take a moment to, like, rate it or comment on it for us. This feedback really helps us, and it helps us get the word out to, like, helping other entrepreneurs and founders. Thank you.